biggest misconceptions

[Bob M.]

REPLY: OK grantsrc...it seem like you're getting it. Great! Now consider this one (thanks to ljudge for proposing it):
PLAY: 3-8 from A's 20. A10's legal forward pass is caught by A85 at A's 30. In an attempt to tackle the receiver, B22 grabs A85's face mask (incidental) at A's 30. A85 breaks away and circles back behind the neutral zone. He is at A's 17 when (a) he is tackled, or (b) he fumbles and A33 recovers at A's 18. RULING: ??

[grantsrc]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: No problem MIke...the more different ways that we can explain it, the better off grantsrc will be.

Hey, come on! What about all the others out there that didn't step up? Or am I the lone village idiot?

Anyway, thanks guys for helping me out. I appreciate your patience and explanations.

[grantsrc]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: OK grantsrc...it seem like you're getting it. Great! Now consider this one (thanks to ljudge for proposing it):
PLAY: 3-8 from A's 20. A10's legal forward pass is caught by A85 at A's 30. In an attempt to tackle the receiver, B22 grabs A85's face mask (incidental) at A's 30. A85 breaks away and circles back behind the neutral zone. He is at A's 17 when (a) he is tackled, or (b) he fumbles and A33 recovers at A's 18. RULING: ??

Oh man, you guys are putting me on the spot! I will have to check the books, think it through while mowing the lawn, and get back to you guys.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: OK grantsrc...it seem like you're getting it. Great! Now consider this one (thanks to ljudge for proposing it):
PLAY: 3-8 from A's 20. A10's legal forward pass is caught by A85 at A's 30. In an attempt to tackle the receiver, B22 grabs A85's face mask (incidental) at A's 30. A85 breaks away and circles back behind the neutral zone. He is at A's 17 when (a) he is tackled, or (b) he fumbles and A33 recovers at A's 18. RULING: ??

Good question. I'm going to give this a shot to see if I have it.

The first part of this play was a loose ball play. Once A85 caught the pass, the subsequent run became a running play. The spot of the facemask foul is the A's 30.


(a) A85 did himself a disservice when he goes backwards behind the neutral zone and gets tackled. Nothing about that changes the status of the play to a loose ball play again. The facemask foul will be enforced from the end of A85's run, the A-17 because that is the basic spot for fouls by the defense during running plays. It will be 3 & 6 from the A-22. We can't penalize B from the A-30. A85 retreated after the foul and was subsequently tackled for a loss.

(b) Because A85 made it back behind the neutral zone and fumbles, this once again becomes a loose ball play. I don't see anything in the rulebook that says the nuetral zone dissolves after the ball has crossed out of the zone. (Please correct me if I am wrong). A fumble by A in or behind the neutral zone and any run (or runs) that precede it is treated as a loose ball play. Basic spot then becomes the previous spot and that is where the penalty is enforced from. 3rd & 3 from the A-25.

[grantsrc]

Darn, Mike beat me to it. Honestly, I was thinking along the same lines as Mike. "Does the neutral zone dissolve? No, that's free blocking zone."

So in A, since it is a completed pass, the play becomes a running play. The basic spot would be the end of the run. As someone said earlier, all defensive penalties are enforced from the basic spot, that being where he got tackled.

In B, since you can only have one loose ball play, the loose ball here would be the fumble. Even though he voluntarily ran behind the NZ, the foul would be enforced from the basic spot, the previous spot.

[James Neil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY:

(b) Because A85 made it back behind the neutral zone and fumbles, this once again becomes a loose ball play. I don't see anything in the rulebook that says the nuetral zone dissolves after the ball has crossed out of the zone. (Please correct me if I am wrong). A fumble by A in or behind the neutral zone and any run (or runs) that precede it is treated as a loose ball play. Basic spot then becomes the previous spot and that is where the penalty is enforced from. 3rd & 3 from the A-25.

Mike , I believe you can have multiple running plays pre down but there can only be one loose ball play .

[PSU213]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by James Neil

Originally posted by mikesears

Mike , I believe you can have multiple running plays pre down but there can only be one loose ball play .

That may be true, sorta, and I don't I don't really want to split hairs on the issue, but the rule (10-3-1b and other places I believe) states: A loose-ball play is...a...fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession." So, bascially, any time there is a fumble behind the NZ and team possession has not changed during the down, it would be a loose ball play (even if a run, pass, etc. took the ball beyond the NZ, just so the fumble occured once the ball was back behind the NZ). Now, if A fumbled behind the NZ, recovers the fumble, and proceeds to fumble again behind the NZ, we could argue about whether or not these are separate loose ball plays, but the basic spot remains the same for all (previous spot).

On the other hand, if A has 1/10 from its own 20 yard line, runs to the 25, fumbles, recovers, then runs to the 30 and fumbles again, we definitely have two running plays here. The basic spot for the first (the "first" run, and action during the first loose ball) is the 25, and the basic spot for the second running play (the run after the fumble is recovered and action during the loose ball after the 2nd fumble) is the 30.

Finally, to go back to what Mike said, when A85 fumbles behind the NZ, it "becomes" a loose ball play "again," but I don't think it would necessarily qualify as a "new" loose ball play, per se. This is really a matter of semantics, and I don't think (?) it would have a bearing on penalty enforcement. I hope all of that makes sense.

[Edited by PSU213 on Jun 19th, 2005 at 10:28 AM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: OK grantsrc...it seem like you're getting it. Great! Now consider this one (thanks to ljudge for proposing it):
PLAY: 3-8 from A's 20. A10's legal forward pass is caught by A85 at A's 30. In an attempt to tackle the receiver, B22 grabs A85's face mask (incidental) at A's 30. A85 breaks away and circles back behind the neutral zone. He is at A's 17 when (a) he is tackled, or (b) he fumbles and A33 recovers at A's 18. RULING: ??

What is the answer to this? Is (b) a loose ball play or a running play?

[PSU213]

Originally posted by mikesears

What is the answer to this? Is (b) a loose ball play or a running play?

I think in (b) this would be loose ball, as 10-3-1c and 10-3-1d does not specify whats happens before the fumble (such as a pass causing the ball to go beyond the NZ).

(And I apologize if you were asking grantsrc, as opposed to the forum in general.)

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I think it's clear to everyone that (a) is a running play. just happens to be a running play that ends behind the NZ, but a running play nonetheless. In (b), all action during the down occurred during a single loose ball play. JN and PSU213 have it right. There is no running play involved. What made it a loose ball play clearly was A's fumble after he returned behind the NZ. That the ball was beyond the NZ at some time during the down is immaterial. An important thing to remember: There is no defined end to a loose ball play. The only way a loose ball play definitively ends is when the down ends or when there is a change of possession. I can't think of any other way for a loose ball play to reach a definite conclusion. Anyone?

[Edited by Bob M. on Jun 20th, 2005 at 12:09 PM]

[grantsrc]

So with all that said, the enforcement spots for both A and B would be the previous spot?

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: I think it's clear to everyone that (a) is a running play. just happens to be a running play that ends behind the NZ, but a running play nonetheless. In (b), all action during the down occurred during a single loose ball play. JN and PSU213 have it right. There is no running play involved. What made it a loose ball play clearly was A's fumble after he returned behind the NZ. That the ball was beyond the NZ at some time during the down is immaterial. An important thing to remember: There is no defined end to a loose ball play. The only way a loose ball play definitively ends is when the down ends or when there is a change of possession. I can't think of any other way for a loose ball play to reach a definite conclusion. Anyone?

[Edited by Bob M. on Jun 20th, 2005 at 12:09 PM]

I would agree that only the end of the down or change of possession "ends" a loose ball play, as, without those actions, the ball can always return behind the NZ for a fumble, backward pass, etc.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by grantsrc
So with all that said, the enforcement spots for both A and B would be the previous spot?

In (A), the foul would be enforced from the end of the run.

[grantsrc]

Originally posted by mikesears

In (A), the foul would be enforced from the end of the run.

All defensive fouls are administered from the end of the run. Since the run ended behind the NZ, I thought that had bearing on the spot. Now I realize, that is only for offensive fouls.

I am so glad that I am not a white hat. That way I can really nail this down so I do not make mistakes like this.

What about this play?
1st and 10 from A45. A11 throws a forward pass to A85. While the ball is in the air, B29 grabs the facemask of A88. A88 is not near the ball. A85 catches the ball and runs to B35.

Ruling: The foul is enforced from the end of the run even though the foul occured while the ball was in the air. Since the ball is caught, the basic spot becomes the end of the run. A ball, 1st and 10 from B30.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by grantsrc
What about this play?
1st and 10 from A45. A11 throws a forward pass to A85. While the ball is in the air, B29 grabs the facemask of A88. A88 is not near the ball. A85 catches the ball and runs to B35.

Ruling: The foul is enforced from the end of the run even though the foul occured while the ball was in the air. Since the ball is caught, the basic spot becomes the end of the run. A ball, 1st and 10 from B30.

Loose ball play. A can take the results of the play OR have the foul enforced from the previous spot. If the facemask foul would have occured after the pass we caught, it would have been enforced from the end of the run.