[mikesears]

Originally posted by grantsrc
Bob, I really appreciate all your feedback and insights on this interpretation. I keep going back and forth between the Federation case book, Federation rule book, and your posts. In the example above, you said the basic spot is where the run ends and he fumbles. That would be supported by Fig 4 in 10-6. The part where I get lost is where the rule book says "A loose-ball play is action during... 3.A backward pass, illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change in team possession. It includes the run(s) which precede such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble." So according to this, if the fumble occurs behind the neutral zone, the preceding run is still considered part of the loose-ball play, so the basic spot would be the previous spot.

Correct. In order for a play to be classified as a loose-ball play, the ball must come loose from in or behind in the neutral zone. The one exception is if the ball comes loose from an illegal forward pass. An illegal forward pass is classified as a running play. Only legal forward passes are classified as being part of a loose ball play.

A foul by A behind the basic spot would be enforced from the spot of foul?

Correct. All but one applied.

But, if the fumble occurs beyond the neutral zone (like your example above) all action prior to the fumble are considered a running play?

Yes. Some officials get the terms loose-ball and loose-ball play confused. They assume just because the ball is loose, it is now a loose-ball play. Only if the ball comes loose from in or behind the neutral zone is a play classified as a loose-ball play.

And to throw one more monkey wrench in this, even the fumble is considered part of the running play prior to A or B securing possession since it occurred beyond the neutral zone?

Exactly. I think you are getting it

Play: 1st and 10 from A20. A11 drops back to pass. As he is dropping back, B92 grasps A11's facemask on A17, where A11 (a) fumbles the ball and is recovered by A77 at A16,

Loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot. Foul by the defense is always enforced from the basic spot. If A accepts, 1st & 5 from the A-25.

(b) fumbles the ball forward and is recovered by A77 at A22

Again, a loose ball play. Same as A.

or (c) is downed at A15.

Because the ball never came loose, the play is treated as a running play. Basic spot for a running play is the end of the run. 1/10 at the A-20 again after penalty is enforced. A11 might have done himself a favor by fumbling the ball to gain the 5 yards back.

My ruling: (a) Since the fumble occurred behind the neutral zone, all action is part of the loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot. Since the foul by B is behind the basic spot, the enforcement spot would be the basic spot. 1st and 5 from A25. (b) Same as A. The spot of the recovery doesn't matter, even if it is beyond the neutral zone. (c) Since there was no loose-ball, this is a running play. The basic spot is A15, where he is downed.

Correct.

Since the penalty by B occurred beyond the basic spot,

Fouls by the defense are enforced from the basic spot. Spot of the foul is unimportant.

the enforcement spot would be where the run ends. Coincidentally, 1st and 10 from A20.

This is right.

Boy, I sure hope I am starting to sort this out. I agree with your comment about rules knowledge. I guess that is why I won't let the dead horse die. I really want to understand this. Thanks again for helping me (and hopefully others- I don't want to be the lone fool here) out.

I think you are starting to understand. I hope Bob doesn't mind that I jumped in here

The all-but-once principle can be confusing until the terminology is cleared up.