biggest misconceptions

[JugglingReferee]

With so much American ball prevelant in the Canadian media, there are often misconceptions seen at our amateur (and sometimes professional) games. Here are just a few.

The chuck zone is 5 yards. Uh-uh. 1 yard here.

The infamous pocket. No such animal.

Offside by the offense and a facemask by the defense will offset.

The Canadian game is inferior to the American game.

[cowbyfan1]

One of my favs is "He was out of the pocket"
Also the ol uncatchable pass and he was in the halo.

[Dommer1]

"OPI? How can you call OPI? It was a play action pass!"

Huh?

[PSU213]

Originally posted by AndrewMcCarthy

What's wrong with that?

Pretty much all penalties are enforced applying the all-but-one principle, with only a few exceptions (Rule 10). It's only the "but one" part that applies to the play in my original example (a foul by the offense behind the basic spot). But, generally speaking, all-but-one is used to enforce almost all fouls.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by grantsrc

(snip)...ANY foul on ANY loose ball play (pass, fumble, or kick) is enforced from the previous spot

REPLY: As a general statement, this is not true for Federation ball. Any offensive foul behind the basic spot is enforced from the spot of the foul--not the previous spot. True, the BASIC spot is always the previous spot on such plays (except on PSK fouls), but the enforcement spot may differ.

Originally posted by grantsrc
...All other action prior to the "loose ball" (pass, fumble, or legal or illegal kick) like the QB dropping back, or holding, or face masks or whatever, would still be treated as a loose ball play since loose ball followed. Thus the enforcement spot would be the previous spot.

REPLY: But, if the foul is not followed by a legal forward pass, a backward pass, a fumble, or a legal or illegal kick from behind the NZ, then it's a running play--like in the face mask play I posted earlier. And respectfully, your statement that "...the enforcement spot would be the previous spot" is not correct. The BASIC spot would be the previous spot; the ENFORCEMENT spot can only be determined after determining WHO fouled (offense or defense) and WHERE that foul occurred relative to the basic spot. It may be the previous spot or it might be the spot of the foul. Maybe a play situation will help. PLAY: A, 3-10 from A's 40. QB A12 throws a legal forward pass down field. Prior to the pass, A65 held at A's 32. RULING: Since A's foul occurred during a loose ball play, the BASIC spot is the previous spot. But since the foul was by the OFFENSE and it occurred BEHIND the basic spot, enforce from the spot of the foul. Result -- A's ball, 3-28 from A's 22. That's the "one" in the all-but-one principle. Does that help??

Since you're using the term "loose ball play," I'm assuming that you're a Federation rules official (since there's no such thing as a loose ball play in NCAA rules). But coincidentally, the enforcement you're suggesting for a loose ball play is very similar to the NCAA rules.

[Edited by Bob M. on Jun 15th, 2005 at 09:40 AM]

[ABoselli]

"He was outside the tackle!!"

"There can't be roughing the kicker, the snap hit the ground first!"

"He hit him beyond 5 yards!!"

"That's two forward passes!!" (although that one is now true)

"They left before he punted the ball!!"

"Who should 78 report to when he's an eligible reciever?"

"There can't be roughing the passer!! He's not the quarterback!"

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ABoselli
"There can't be roughing the passer!! He's not the quarterback!"

My line to the coaches is always, "that's why it is called roughing the passer, not roughing the quarterback." They will clue in how dumb they are when they realize how long it took them to get it.

[ljudge]

It's clear that coaches and fans get caught up in NFL rules for the most part. This isn't up there with one of the biggest misconceptions but I did read on this forum a very funny post from one of you a while back. I believe it was an official from Alabama who posted the message.

I'm paraphrasing here course but the referee's comment (from what I remember of it) was amusing.

It was during a coach/referee pre-game conference that a coach pulled a red flag out of his pocket and asked if he should just throw the flag on the field if he wanted to challenge a particular call.

The referee replied something like "if you throw that red flag on the field it's going to be covered by a little gold flag and it's going to cost you 15 yards."

[grantsrc]

Sorry all, I was all messed up on the basic enforcement spot or whatever you want to call it. Honestly, I really don't know what I was thinking.

So then please enlighten me, since it's obvious that I have no clue whatsoever. What is wrong with the "go with what hurts them most" philosophy in the pass play scenario we are talking about?

Bob- Yes, I was using federation rules. I do work some games that use NCAA rules, but I haven't worked many and I haven't spent a lot of time distinguishing the difference between the two codes. Obviously I need to spend a little more time with the federation rules too. (insert embarrassed me here) I need to become comfortable with all the different terms and jargon used for these items.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by grantsrc
(snip)...What is wrong with the "go with what hurts them most" philosophy in the pass play scenario we are talking about?

REPLY: Good question. Consider this play. PLAY: A's ball 2-10 from A's 20. A throws a legal forward pass to A88 at A's 22. A88 circles around to the other side of the field where he is dropped for a loss at A's 16. Before the pass is thrown, A55 held at A's 18. RULING: A literal use of the "go with what hurts them most" philosophy might incline you to enforce any accepted penalty from A's 16--since that's what would hurt them the most. But that would be incorrect. Since the foul occurred during a loose ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot. Since the foul was by the OFFENSE and the the foul occurred BEHIND the basic spot, you enforce from the spot of the foul (A's 18). Therefore, the result of an accepted penalty would be A's ball 2-21 from A's 9 (half the distance). Of course, B could always decline the penalty and give the ball to A for a 3rd-14 play.

You could also see the flaw in that philosophy in this play which includes a foul by the defense during a running play: PLAY: On 3rd and 6 from midfield, A22 runs to B's 40 where he fumbles. While the ball is loose, B12 holds A85 at B's 35 to prevent from recovering. A33 recovers at B's 30. RULING: If you applied the "hit 'em where it hurts most" philosophy here, you might be tempted to enforce B's holding foul from B's 30...or at least from B's 35 (the spot of the foul). Both would be incorrect. Since this is a foul by the defense, enforcement is from the basic spot--the end of the run. That, by definition, is the spot where A22 fumbles. Therefore accepting the penalty will give A the ball, 1st and 10 from B's 30. Only by sheer coincidence, declining the penalty would produce the same result.

In my humble opinion--and I mean no offense by this--using phrases like "penalize them where it hurts most", or "the ground can't cause a fumble" and other such shortcuts are poor substitutes for thoroughly understanding the rules.

[chiefgil]

Coach, you only had ten players on the field.

Well, who wasn't out there?

I don't know, or care; you're the coach...

[grantsrc]

Originally posted by Bob M.

You could also see the flaw in that philosophy in this play which includes a foul by the defense during a running play: PLAY: On 3rd and 6 from midfield, A22 runs to B's 40 where he fumbles. While the ball is loose, B12 holds A85 at B's 35 to prevent from recovering. A33 recovers at B's 30. RULING: If you applied the "hit 'em where it hurts most" philosophy here, you might be tempted to enforce B's holding foul from B's 30...or at least from B's 35 (the spot of the foul). Both would be incorrect. Since this is a foul by the defense, enforcement is from the basic spot--the end of the run. That, by definition, is the spot where A22 fumbles. Therefore accepting the penalty will give A the ball, 1st and 10 from B's 30. Only by sheer coincidence, declining the penalty would produce the same result.

Bob, I really appreciate all your feedback and insights on this interpretation. I keep going back and forth between the Federation case book, Federation rule book, and your posts. In the example above, you said the basic spot is where the run ends and he fumbles. That would be supported by Fig 4 in 10-6. The part where I get lost is where the rule book says "A loose-ball play is action during... 3.A backward pass, illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change in team possession. It includes the run(s) which precede such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble." So according to this, if the fumble occurs behind the neutral zone, the preceding run is still considered part of the loose-ball play, so the basic spot would be the previous spot. A foul by A behind the basic spot would be enforced from the spot of foul?

But, if the fumble occurs beyond the neutral zone (like your example above) all action prior to the fumble are considered a running play? And to throw one more monkey wrench in this, even the fumble is considered part of the running play prior to A or B securing possession since it occurred beyond the neutral zone?

Play: 1st and 10 from A20. A11 drops back to pass. As he is dropping back, B92 grasps A11's facemask on A17, where A11 (a) fumbles the ball and is recovered by A77 at A16, (b) fumbles the ball forward and is recovered by A77 at A22, or (c) is downed at A15.
My ruling: (a) Since the fumble occurred behind the neutral zone, all action is part of the loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot. Since the foul by B is behind the basic spot, the enforcement spot would be the basic spot. 1st and 5 from A25. (b) Same as A. The spot of the recovery doesn't matter, even if it is beyond the neutral zone. (c) Since there was no loose-ball, this is a running play. The basic spot is A15, where he is downed. Since the penalty by B occurred beyond the basic spot, the enforcement spot would be where the run ends. Coincidentally, 1st and 10 from A20.

Boy, I sure hope I am starting to sort this out. I agree with your comment about rules knowledge. I guess that is why I won't let the dead horse die. I really want to understand this. Thanks again for helping me (and hopefully others- I don't want to be the lone fool here) out.

[mikesears]

grantsrc,

Here is the text of an article I wrote for my crew's website:

http://www.footballrefs.com/show_article.php?id=1


It is written to help explain how the all-but-one principle applies to a play with a single foul.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by grantsrc
Bob, I really appreciate all your feedback and insights on this interpretation. I keep going back and forth between the Federation case book, Federation rule book, and your posts. In the example above, you said the basic spot is where the run ends and he fumbles. That would be supported by Fig 4 in 10-6. The part where I get lost is where the rule book says "A loose-ball play is action during... 3.A backward pass, illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change in team possession. It includes the run(s) which precede such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble." So according to this, if the fumble occurs behind the neutral zone, the preceding run is still considered part of the loose-ball play, so the basic spot would be the previous spot.

Correct. In order for a play to be classified as a loose-ball play, the ball must come loose from in or behind in the neutral zone. The one exception is if the ball comes loose from an illegal forward pass. An illegal forward pass is classified as a running play. Only legal forward passes are classified as being part of a loose ball play.

A foul by A behind the basic spot would be enforced from the spot of foul?

Correct. All but one applied.

But, if the fumble occurs beyond the neutral zone (like your example above) all action prior to the fumble are considered a running play?

Yes. Some officials get the terms loose-ball and loose-ball play confused. They assume just because the ball is loose, it is now a loose-ball play. Only if the ball comes loose from in or behind the neutral zone is a play classified as a loose-ball play.

And to throw one more monkey wrench in this, even the fumble is considered part of the running play prior to A or B securing possession since it occurred beyond the neutral zone?

Exactly. I think you are getting it

Play: 1st and 10 from A20. A11 drops back to pass. As he is dropping back, B92 grasps A11's facemask on A17, where A11 (a) fumbles the ball and is recovered by A77 at A16,

Loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot. Foul by the defense is always enforced from the basic spot. If A accepts, 1st & 5 from the A-25.

(b) fumbles the ball forward and is recovered by A77 at A22

Again, a loose ball play. Same as A.

or (c) is downed at A15.

Because the ball never came loose, the play is treated as a running play. Basic spot for a running play is the end of the run. 1/10 at the A-20 again after penalty is enforced. A11 might have done himself a favor by fumbling the ball to gain the 5 yards back.

My ruling: (a) Since the fumble occurred behind the neutral zone, all action is part of the loose ball play. Basic spot is the previous spot. Since the foul by B is behind the basic spot, the enforcement spot would be the basic spot. 1st and 5 from A25. (b) Same as A. The spot of the recovery doesn't matter, even if it is beyond the neutral zone. (c) Since there was no loose-ball, this is a running play. The basic spot is A15, where he is downed.

Correct.

Since the penalty by B occurred beyond the basic spot,

Fouls by the defense are enforced from the basic spot. Spot of the foul is unimportant.

the enforcement spot would be where the run ends. Coincidentally, 1st and 10 from A20.

This is right.

Boy, I sure hope I am starting to sort this out. I agree with your comment about rules knowledge. I guess that is why I won't let the dead horse die. I really want to understand this. Thanks again for helping me (and hopefully others- I don't want to be the lone fool here) out.

I think you are starting to understand. I hope Bob doesn't mind that I jumped in here

The all-but-once principle can be confusing until the terminology is cleared up.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: No problem MIke...the more different ways that we can explain it, the better off grantsrc will be.