Forward Progress on Pass Play

[mikesears]

3/9 at A-20. A2 is running a "comeback" pattern. A1 throws the ball toward A2. A2 jumps at the A-32, clasps the ball in his hands at the A-31, and is then contacted by B1 at the A-30. A2 lands at the A-28 and is downed at the A-26.

Where do you spot the ball?

[ljudge]

Great question. The way I have seen this described if the ball had been in the receivers hands while over the end zone it was to ruled a touchdown. So all things being equal I'm saying spot at the 31. With a comeback route this is leaving doubt in my mind. What do others think?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: If he lands on his feet at A's 28 under his own control, it's still a live ball. The fact that he's then tackled at A's 26 is interesting, but I don't think it materially affects how you will rule this play. He could just as easily have landed at the 28 (on his feet) and continued downfield for a TD! You would not want to have blown that one dead. ljudge is correct that the goal line adds a different element to the play, one in which the Federation has seen fit to kill the play and award the score. But if memory serves me correctly, ljudge's play over the endzone would continue to be a live ball in NCAA play. Am I right, TxMike??

[JasonTX]

An AR exists that is similar to this play for NCAA: Airbore A1 receives a legal forward pass one yard within the endzone. As A1 receives the ball, he is contacted by B1 and first comes to the ground with the catch at the one yard line where the ball is declared dead. Ruling: Touchdown

Under NCAA he still has to complete the catch by rule and the ball has to become dead by rule. At that point he then given the forward progress that was in the end zone. The contact in the end zone doesn't make the ball dead.
This rule applies regardless if it's at midfield or the end zone. If after the contact he isn't tackled then the ball is still live.

[mikesears]

Let me clarify this a little.

Originally posted by mikesears

3/9 at A-20. A2 is running a "comeback" pattern. A1 throws the ball toward A2. A2 jumps at the A-32, clasps the ball in his hands at the A-31, and is then wrapped up by B1 at the A-30. A2 lands at the A-28 and is finally dragged down at the A-26.

Where do you spot the ball?

[ljudge]

I just read a case play and now I'm thinking the 28. In my former post I was incorrect in ruling TD from what I can see in the official case play. I believe I'm incorrect because the momentum of the A player. (not to be confused with the momentum rule). If the A player had been over the endzone and pushed back into the field of play and hitting the ground there, then ONLY then it could be ruled a TD.

Case 2.15.1

It is 1st and 10 for A at B's 12 yard line. A1 sprints near the endline and buttonhooks. He jumps and possesses a fwd pass while in the air above the endzone. (a) A1's momentum carries him back into the field of play and he lands and is downed on the 1-yard line; or (b) while in the air in the end zone, he is contacted by B1 and he then lands and is downed on the B's 2-yard line.

Ruling: In (a) it's A's ball 1st and Goal at the 1. In (b) it's a TD if the covering official judges the contact by B1 is the cause of A1 coming down at the 2 yard line.

So in Mike's play, I'm assuming it was the momentum of the player's movement in the comeback route and the reason A came down at the 28 was because he ran that kind of route. His catch was completed at the 28 and any kind of progress toward B's goal line would have ended there. JUST a guess but that's what I'm thinking now that I have read this case play.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by mikesears
3/9 at A-20. A2 is running a "comeback" pattern. A1 throws the ball toward A2. A2 jumps at the A-32, clasps the ball in his hands at the A-31, and is then contacted by B1 at the A-30. A2 lands at the A-28 and is downed at the A-26.

Where do you spot the ball?

My vote is the A-30. A2 caught the ball at the 32, but in order to do so, he risked loosing yardage by the route the offense chose to execute. B contacting A2 establishes forward progress. A2 lands at the 28 not by his own accord. Had he then tried to move from the 28, FP would be that 28 and so forth as A2 moved.

[Dale Smith]

Originally posted by ljudge
I just read a case play and now I'm thinking the 28. In my former post I was incorrect in ruling TD from what I can see in the official case play. I believe I'm incorrect because the momentum of the A player. (not to be confused with the momentum rule). If the A player had been over the endzone and pushed back into the field of play and hitting the ground there, then ONLY then it could be ruled a TD.

Case 2.15.1

It is 1st and 10 for A at B's 12 yard line. A1 sprints near the endline and buttonhooks. He jumps and possesses a fwd pass while in the air above the endzone. (a) A1's momentum carries him back into the field of play and he lands and is downed on the 1-yard line; or (b) while in the air in the end zone, he is contacted by B1 and he then lands and is downed on the B's 2-yard line.

Ruling: In (a) it's A's ball 1st and Goal at the 1. In (b) it's a TD if the covering official judges the contact by B1 is the cause of A1 coming down at the 2 yard line.

So in Mike's play, I'm assuming it was the momentum of the player's movement in the comeback route and the reason A came down at the 28 was because he ran that kind of route. His catch was completed at the 28 and any kind of progress toward B's goal line would have ended there. JUST a guess but that's what I'm thinking now that I have read this case play.

Originally posted by mikesears

"3/9 at A-20. A2 is running a "comeback" pattern. A1 throws the ball toward A2. A2 jumps at the A-32, clasps the ball in his hands at the A-31, and is then wrapped up by B1 at the A-30. A2 lands at the A-28 and is finally dragged down at the A-26.

Where do you spot the ball?"

A’s ball 1/10 at A’s 30. A2’s forward progress stopped when B1 wrapped him up at the 30 yardline. If B1 had not wrapped up A2 then his forward progress spot would be at the A-28

Dale Smith

[kentref]

Originally posted by mikesears
Let me clarify this a little.

I'd spot it at A's 30. This is where he was contacted by B1. A2 completes the pass by coming down in bounds at the A28.

I agree I would say the 30..

[Texoma_LJ]

(NFHS) I believe the ball should be marked at A's 28. The pass was not complete until the A player contacted the grounds inbounds. In this case, the contact by B has no bearing on this happening so the contact should be ignored while the A player is still in the air. Once he is driven back and the play is dead I believe forward progress is awarded to the original spot of the completed pass which would be A's 28.

The contact by the B player is only significant if the A player had not made contact with the ground inbounds.

[MJT]

My vote would be the 30. I think it is different if he IS, or IS NOT contacted at the 30. If he IS not contacted at the 30, the he is down at the 28 and that is where the ball is spotted, but since he WAS contacted, the defense has now establed that as the spot the ball will come back to, unless the ballcarrier breaks free, then we are back to square one.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I agree with most...A's 30.

Interesting discussion on McGriff's board that I had heard once before. Elvis (NCAA) posted that he had asked Adams, the NCAA Rules Editor, about forward progress in general. Adams offered that forward progress is only applicable if the runner is moving forward. Consider: 1st & 10 on A's 20. QB A11 retreats from the neutral zone (toward his goal line) while looking for a receiver. Under pressure and unable to throw a pass, he is still retreating at A's 5 where he is pushed by B77, causing him to stumble and fall into A's end zone. The ball is in his possession and behind A's goal line when his knee touches the ground. RULING (Adams): Safety. Since the QB was moving backward, a consideration of forward progress is immaterial. In fact, Adams added that if the QB were standing still when contacted, the ruling would be the same—safety. Everyone pretty much agreed that no one calls it like this. Everyone gives the ball to A at A's 2 where B's contact first occurred. A Big-12 referee offered a good benchmark: when the runner loses his feet and no longer has the ability to drive ahead for more yardage, that's when the ball is dead.

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: I agree with most...A's 30.

Interesting discussion on McGriff's board that I had heard once before. Elvis (NCAA) posted that he had asked Adams, the NCAA Rules Editor, about forward progress in general. Adams offered that forward progress is only applicable if the runner is moving forward. Consider: 1st & 10 on A's 20. QB A11 retreats from the neutral zone (toward his goal line) while looking for a receiver. Under pressure and unable to throw a pass, he is still retreating at A's 5 where he is pushed by B77, causing him to stumble and fall into A's end zone. The ball is in his possession and behind A's goal line when his knee touches the ground. RULING (Adams): Safety. Since the QB was moving backward, a consideration of forward progress is immaterial. In fact, Adams added that if the QB were standing still when contacted, the ruling would be the same—safety. Everyone pretty much agreed that no one calls it like this. Everyone gives the ball to A at A's 2 where B's contact first occurred. A Big-12 referee offered a good benchmark: when the runner loses his feet and no longer has the ability to drive ahead for more yardage, that's when the ball is dead.

Bob M,
very interesting thought....I never looked at it that way!

[Texoma_LJ]

Assuming the receiver is contacted by B as mentioned... and the ball comes loose before A touches the ground. Is this an incomplete pass or a fumble???

I ask this because my logic is as follows... if you rule fumble, then spot the ball in the original question at the 30 (player A had made a catch and lost possession). If the ruling becomes an incomplete pass, then the mark would be at the 28 (player A never made a legal catch until he hit the ground).