Another portion of

[Bob M.]

I can't stop myself!!! Here's another group of questions. Again, FED and NCAA rulings are different in at least some of these cases.

3rd and 25 @ A’s 45. A1, not in a scrimmage kick formation, takes the snap and quick kicks the football.

1. The ball hits the ground on the B-15 and comes to rest on the B-5. A2 then muffs the ball into the endzone. Ruling(s)
2. The ball hits A2 in the back on the A-47, becomes grounded on the A-44. A3 then recovers the ball and advances to the A-50. Ruling(s)
3. B1, immediately after the snap, charges into snapper A2, driving him to the ground. Ruling(s)
4. Ball is at the B-20 when it hits B1. B2 then signals for a fair catch and catches the ball on the B-24. Ruling(s)
5. Kick hits B1 on the A-40 and then rebounds to the A-35 where it goes OOB. Ruling(s)
6. B1 muffs the ball on the B-7. B2 then catches the kick on the B-4, is unable to stop his momentum, and continues directly into his own endzone where he is downed. Ruling(s)

[Mike Simonds]

I'll take the first one: B can take the ball at the spot of first touching or accept the results of the play which is a touchback.

Edit note: NFHS rules apply to my answer.

[Edited by Mike Simonds on Jan 13th, 2005 at 12:51 PM]

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
I'll take the first one: B can take the ball at the spot of first touching or accept the results of the play which is a touchback.

Edit note: NFHS rules apply to my answer.

[Edited by Mike Simonds on Jan 13th, 2005 at 12:51 PM]

REPLY: As Regis would ask, "Is that your final answer?"

[mcrowder]

On the first one (NCAA, but expect the same answer for FED), the ball is dead once it's at rest if B is not appearing to make an attempt on the ball. I'm blowing my whistle when it stops moving. B's ball on the 5.

On #2, I need to know where A2 is - was he a lineman, in the expanded neutral zone? Or is he a wing? (If a lineman, why the number 2?) Also, what exactly do you mean by Grounded? Dead and at rest? Touched by A? etc.

On #3, is the QB in shotgun or regular formation? If shotgun, how far back?

4 - B ball 1st and 10 on the 10.

5 - B ball 1st and 10 on A's 35.

6 - Touchback.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by mcrowder
On the first one (NCAA, but expect the same answer for FED), the ball is dead once it's at rest if B is not appearing to make an attempt on the ball. I'm blowing my whistle when it stops moving. B's ball on the 5.

On #2, I need to know where A2 is - was he a lineman, in the expanded neutral zone? Or is he a wing? (If a lineman, why the number 2?) Also, what exactly do you mean by Grounded? Dead and at rest? Touched by A? etc.

On #3, is the QB in shotgun or regular formation? If shotgun, how far back?

4 - B ball 1st and 10 on the 10.

5 - B ball 1st and 10 on A's 35.

6 - Touchback.

REPLY: Just to clarify...
#1 - A muffs it right after the ball comes to rest, but before the official has the opportunity to blow it dead because no one is attempting to secure it. In this case since A muffed it, at least he was attempting to secure it, so you probably shouldn't be blowing the whistle to kill the play. If you see the ball come to rest and there are two opponents racing toward it, would you kill it?

#2 - Let's say that A2 is a lineman. I'm not sure it matters. I don't mean to imply that he's wearing #2. I've always used A1 - A11 to designate Team A players, with A12, A13, etc. as substitutes. Comes from years of reading the Federation Case Book. "Grounded" simply means that it's no longer in flight. Has nothing to do at all with its status as live or dead or whether its still moving or at rest. For our purposes, consider it a grounded live ball that's rolling around at A's 44 when A3 recovers.

#3 - Again, not sure what you're getting at (the play says it's not a scrimmage kick formation) but let's say he's in a shotgun 5 yards behind the snapper at the snap.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Bob M.
I can't stop myself!!! Here's another group of questions. Again, FED and NCAA rulings are different in at least some of these cases.

3rd and 25 @ A’s 45. A1, not in a scrimmage kick formation, takes the snap and quick kicks the football.

1. The ball hits the ground on the B-15 and comes to rest on the B-5. A2 then muffs the ball into the endzone. Ruling(s) If not already blown dead by official, B can take touchback or spot of first touching.

2. The ball hits A2 in the back on the A-47, becomes grounded on the A-44. A3 then recovers the ball and advances to the A-50. Ruling(s) The ball hits a lineman in the back, is behind the LOS, so A/K can advance. They do not get it past the LTG for a 1st down, but since A recovered it behind the LOS the ball remains live and the down counts. It will be 4th and 20 at the 50 yard line for A

3. B1, immediately after the snap, charges into snapper A2, driving him to the ground. Ruling(s) No foul for roughing the snapper cuz they were not in scrimmage kick formation (1 player 7 or more yards behind the NZ).

4. Ball is at the B-20 when it hits B1. B2 then signals for a fair catch and catches the ball on the B-24. Ruling(s) Illegal fair catch signal. 15 yard PSK foul, ½ the distance from the 24.

5. Kick hits B1 on the A-40 and then rebounds to the A-35 where it goes OOB. Ruling(s) B’s ball at A-35 cuz ball went OOB’s after scrimmage kick.

6. B1 muffs the ball on the B-7. B2 then catches the kick on the B-4, is unable to stop his momentum, and continues directly into his own endzone where he is downed. Ruling(s) The momentum exception still exists since it is still a kick, just muffed, so B would have a touchback.
[/B]

My answers are bolded above.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Monte... Just some thoughts: #1 - Were you answering for NCAA or Fed? Touchback??; #2 - Does B have any say in the matter?; #4 - Illegal signal? and how many yards?; #6 - Liked your answer right up till the last word!

[MJT]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Monte... Just some thoughts: #1 - Were you answering for NCAA or Fed? Touchback??; #2 - Does B have any say in the matter?; #4 - Illegal signal? and how many yards?; #6 - Liked your answer right up till the last word!

Yes, NF for #1, it would be illegal touching in NCAA.

#2 I don't know how B would have any say in the matter since A2 was in the expanded NZ when he was hit by the ball.

Should have said "invalid" not illegal FC signal in #4, thanks!

I think the word "touchback" came out of my a**, cuz obviously the momemtum exception would have it at the B4.

What do you think now, Bob?

[mcrowder]

Thanks for the clarifications. On 3, I have nothing. On 2, I agree with MJT.

On 1, the reason I ask is that on a punt, the covering official will often blow the ball dead immediately if it comes to rest. There's no need to wait any longer, even if there are K players around. In fact, you see it often where K players have surrounded the ball and it's rolling slowly. If K doesn't touch it, and it stops rolling, you blow it dead right there, without waiting for K to grab it.

However, since your sitch has the official not blowing it dead, if K somehow managed to touch it after it was stopped, but not blown dead, and pushed it into the EZ, then R can take the ball at the first touching or as a TB.

[Warrenkicker]

On #1 the book says under 4-2-2f that a scrimmage kick at rest then touched by K becomes dead at that spot. There is no first touching. I wouldn't be quick to blow the play dead just because the ball stopped moving but if it has stopped moving and K touches it first then the play is over.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
On #1 the book says under 4-2-2f that a scrimmage kick at rest then touched by K becomes dead at that spot. There is no first touching. I wouldn't be quick to blow the play dead just because the ball stopped moving but if it has stopped moving and K touches it first then the play is over.

You beat me too it. I believe that would be the ruling for Fed.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
On #1 the book says under 4-2-2f that a scrimmage kick at rest then touched by K becomes dead at that spot. There is no first touching. I wouldn't be quick to blow the play dead just because the ball stopped moving but if it has stopped moving and K touches it first then the play is over.

REPLY: Bingo! But there's no equivalent rule in NCAA which causes the ball to become immediately dead when an a scrimmage kick at rest is touched by a player of A.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by mcrowder
(snip) ... In fact, you see it often where K players have surrounded the ball and it's rolling slowly. If K doesn't touch it, and it stops rolling, you blow it dead right there, without waiting for K to grab it.

REPLY: I agree if K players are just surrounding a slowly rolling scrimmage kick, I would blow it dead as soon as it came to rest. But If it comes to rest and there are players still moving toward it, I'd give it a second or two to make sure that none of them are attempting to secure it. Suppose K first touches (illegally touches) a scrimmage kick at B's 20 and it continues to roll until it comes to rest on B's 10. If there's a B player in the neighborhood, I'm going to be certain that he doesn't want any part of that ball before I blow it dead. Remember, he can attempt to recover it and advance with his first touch "get out of jail free" card firmly in hand (barring any fouls, of course). So i'm going to give him the opportunity to recognize that.

[mcrowder]

Fair enough, and agreed. (PS - I'm an NCAA guy. That Fed rule is interesting.)

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Fair enough, and agreed. (PS - I'm an NCAA guy. That Fed rule is interesting.)

REPLY: Now I understand why you said either first touching or a TB. In Fed, the only choice is to give R the ball at the spot it was touched.