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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 10:29am
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I am kind of new at this, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, I'm just trying to understand.
There are times when a ball breaks the sideline plane, but is still not out of bounds, i.e. a ball carrier with the ball in his outside hand running very close to the sideline. If he goes out of bounds the ball is spotted where the front of the ball is where he goes out of bounds. If a player near the sideline leaps toward the EZ and has the ball in his outside hand the ball may be out of bounds momentarily beyond the plane of the sideline, but it could be brought back and cross the EZ inside the pylon. Or he could smack the front of the pylon with the ball. Considering the width of a football, wouldn't part of the ball be breaking the goaline plane? Does all of the ball have to break the plan or just part of it? I thought that any part of the ball breaking the plane was a TD. Just my humble opinion. 
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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 11:59am
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I have been watching this thread and have been enjoying the discussion and think that it is time to join in. What mcrowder has stated is what I have always been taught. Try to look at it in this prospective, A20 is running with the ball in his right arm and dives toward the end zone. The ball crosses the sideline at the one yard line. A20 then lands out of bounds after the ball has penetrated the goal line extended. The result of the play not a TD but the ball is placed where it went OB at the one yard line. Using that philosophy, when a ball carrier is diving toward the pylon and the ball hits the front surface, the ball had to cross the sideline at some point prior to crossing the goal line extended. The covering official must determine the point at which the ball crossed the sideline. That is what we get paid for.
Dale Smith
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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 12:18pm
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Quote:
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Bob M.
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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 01:52pm
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[/B][/QUOTE]
REPLY: And by the same argument, if the ball hits the inside face of the pylon, it would have crossed the goal line first and therfore be a TD. Right?? So...what if the ball hits the corner where the front and inside faces of the pylon intersect?? [/B][/QUOTE] Bob M you are correct. If the ball hits the inside face of the pylon it is a TD. The ball has penetrated the goal line prior to going OB. As far as hitting the corner of the pylon, I think that the odds of that happening would be very small. More than likely I would award a TD. The one thing that this thread points out is that the official responsible the goal line has to be at the goal line prior to the ball getting there. Touchdowns can be earned and unearned in a blink of an eye. We owe it to the players to be at the proper place at the proper time to make the correct ruling. Dale Smith
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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 01:59pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Theisey
What part about the pylons being in the Endzone don't your Gurus understand? I do not think I am flat wrong. Anyone else care to comment? The mascot is also in the endzone. So what. The existence of the pylons in the endzone (out of bounds, no less ... or are you trying to say they are IN bounds?!?!) is irrelevant to whether the ball went out of bounds before crossing the endzone line or not. Let me stretch this point to the absurd, to make the point clear. Player A11 dives out of bounds from the 3 yard line, and is airborne, out of bounds, The ball is at the 3 when it goes out of bounds in flight. Player A11, just about to hit the ground, but still airborne, 3 feet out of bounds stretches his hand with the ball back toward the field and A) grazes or B) misses the pylon with the ball on the back/outside corner. Are you calling this a TD? Of course not .... but if not - how does this differ from the original scenario in anything other than distance where you should spot the ball. In both scenarios, the ball is placed at the 3 yard line. Stretch it further. Earlier in the play, another player hit the pylon, so it is no longer where it used to be. In diving for the endzone, the ball, when reached back toward in-bounds, crosses the goalline 3 inches out of bounds (where the pylon USED to be). Is this a TD? Of course not. So if you're ruling the 1st sitch a TD, and this one not, are you saying that the superfluous equipment on the field (the pylon) changes the dimensions of the field to allow a ball crossing the goalline 3 inches out of bounds to be ruled a TD, but only if the pylon has not moved? Absurd. All of it. The rules are VERY clear - if the ball (in possession of an airborne player) passes out of bounds before it crosses the goalline, it is spotted where it went out. Period. Please stop trying to use a rule that was not intended for this scenario to change the dimensions of the field, or the correct ruling that you would have gotten right had the pylon not been there at all.
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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 02:06pm
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Bob - that is exactly right...
If it hits the inside of the pylon, it MUST have crossed the goalline first, and if it hits the front, it MUST have crossed out of bounds first. There is a caseplay that tells us what to rule if the ball hits the corner (ie - hits the pylon AT the intersection of the goalline and sideline) - it's a TD. Opie - what's being discussed here is ONLY the case of an airborne player. If the player is touching the ground and reaches across the goalline, he gets the benefit of the Goal-Line Extended (through infinity, according to Al Michaels (  ) ). The rules differ for an airborne player, and specifically tell us that if the ball crosses the out of bounds line before crossing the goal line, it's out of bounds. The point of contention exists because of 4.2.3-b that tells us that if the ball hits the pylon, it's out of bounds beyond the endline. That one statement seems to be leading some people to throw out the other rules and give a TD ANY time the ball hits the pylon. My contention on that is that it is true that if the ball hits the pylon, then AT THAT MOMENT, it is out of bounds beyond the endline --- but that is irrelevant, as the ball was ALREADY out of bounds before it struck the endline (the play was over prior to the ball striking the pylon).4-2-3b is really meant for other situations. Like - a loose ball bouncing in the endzone bounces up, strikes the pylon, and comes back in bounds. The ball is OUT of bounds when it strikes the pylon, and is beyond the endline - so rule safety/touchback accordingly.
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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 02:21pm
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Thanks. Getting clearer. There are still questions in my mind.
If the airborne player holds the ball so that it passes inside the pylon, TD, right? If the airborne player holds it so it strikes the front of the pylon, is it safe to assume that part of the ball is breaking the goalline plane inside the pylon (base on the width of the ball being wider than the pylon)at the same time that part of it is also out of bounds as it strikes the pylon? Does the entire ball have to break the goalline plane or just part of it? I know on a play not near the sideline only part of the ball must break the plane for a TD. I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I'm a second year official and have been working the wings and I want to be clear in my mind on this.
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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 02:38pm
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Quote:
If the airborne player holds the ball so that it passes inside the pylon, TD, right? YES...always--provided it's his opponent's goal line ...Does the entire ball have to break the goalline plane or just part of it? In my opinion, just part of it
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Bob M.
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Mon Jan 10, 2005, 03:18pm
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Opie - if the ball strikes the pylon on the front, it was already out of bounds when it did so. Only the smallest tip of the ball must cross the goalline, to answer your question directly, but the ball must not have been out of bounds before that. If it strikes the pylon on the front, it MUST have been out of bounds first, since the pylon is entirely out of bounds.
.....| ..P.| ___|______goalline________ .....| .....| .....o .....o .....b .....| P is the pylon. For the ball to hit the pylon on the front (bottom in this picture), it would have HAD to cross the OOB line first. Similarly, if it hits the pylon on the side (right side in this picture), it would have HAD to cross the goalline first. (periods used as spacers only) [Edited by mcrowder on Jan 10th, 2005 at 03:20 PM]
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Tue Jan 11, 2005, 12:29pm
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I'm with Theisey. The ball hits the pylon, while being held by a player touching inbounds or airborn when last touching inbounds, it's a score.
If it touches the outside of the pylon, where are you placing it? At the .0000001 inch line where is supposedly went OB? That's why it is ruled a TD - you can't place it there. NCAA 4-2-b. - A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line. There's nothing in there about what part of the pylon got touched. There's nothing in there about goal line extended. Just OB behind the goal line. If it got behind the goal line before it was OB, that's a TD. This try was good.
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Tue Jan 11, 2005, 12:37pm
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Quote:
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Bob M.
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Tue Jan 11, 2005, 01:38pm
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This is one of the reasons I am having such a blast with this new vocation, "discussions" of the rules.
I appreciate all the comments here. After reading them all again I've come to the conclusion that if I see this, my arms are going up. I don't want to split hairs but, even with my new eyes, determining the exact angle at which the ball strikes the pylon is easier said than done. Since rule NF 4-3-2 says the ball is out of bounds behind the goal line, I think it had to cross it to get there.
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Tue Jan 11, 2005, 02:37pm
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I'm at a loss to try to understand why, in this specific case, you feel compelled to rule in contradiction to the rules. I just don't get it. I can restate my position ad infinitum, but it's just that - repeating. I'll try one last time.
You both keep quoting a rule that says if the ball hits the pylon, it's out of bounds in the endzone when it hits the pylon. Great. So what? It was already out of bounds. Let me say it this way. Say, for instance, that the pylon is missing, or that in this play, the ball never hits the pylon. Player A11 dives (airborne) from the 2, with the ball going out at the 2, and lands, ball-first- 2 feet out of bounds, 1 yard past the goal line. By rule, when the ball hits the ground 2 feet out of bounds, it's out of bounds beyond the endline (just exactly like the pylon rule you keep quoting). Right? But you don't overrule logic in this case - you put the ball at the 2, where it went out of bounds. By rule. Why? Because it went OUT OF BOUNDS before it went ACROSS THE GOAL LINE. ABoselli - why can't we spot the ball at the .0001 yard line, if that's where it belongs? That particular sentence makes no sense at all. If a player is fighting for the end zone in the middle of the field, and ends up half an inch short of the goalline, you spot it right there - half an inch short. By your logic, you're giving him a TD. You keep also asking where to spot the ball. You spot it exactly where you would have spotted it had the player missed the pylon entirely --- AT THE POINT WHERE THE BALL WENT OUT OF BOUNDS. The existence of the pylon does not change the dimensions of the field or the rules by which we should rule in this case. The rule you are quoting is not applicable here, as the play was over prior to the ball hitting the pylon. The rule you are quoting tells us what to do when the ball hits the pylon, but was otherwise not yet dead. Why, oh, why, do you want to use this to make live a ball that was previously dead. Neither of you told me what you'd do in the case of the guy reaching back from 2 feet out of bounds to graze the outside of the pylon. By your logic, you're giving that guy a TD too, but that makes no sense at all either.
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Tue Jan 11, 2005, 03:20pm
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REPLY: With all due respect, I don't feel that any of the recent posters are feeling "...compelled to rule in contradiction to the rules." They are just ruling in a way that's inconsistent with your interpretation of the rules.
As I mentioned earlier, I can see validity in your logic, that since the pylon is OOB and a ball striking it may have crossed the sideline prior to striking it. And both codes have a rule that this--in normal circumstances--should be ruled OOB at the point where the ball crossed the sideline. However, the FED and the NCAA have both put in a rule that supersedes that logic when the pylon is involved in NF 4-3-2 and NCAA 4-2-3b. The issue these rules are designed to address is one of human frailty. In theory, a pylon has only one dimension, that being infinite height with no width or depth. Such a 'pylon' would be properly positioned at the intersection of the inside edge of the sideline and the field-facing edge of the goal line. This would exactly correspond with the intersection of the front face and inside face of the real pylon. I'm pretty certain that you would agree that any ball striking or passing through such a theoretical 'pylon' would be considered in the endzone as opposed to out of bounds. But no one--including us--could ever see such a 'pylon.' So we're 'forced' to give it some visible dimensions, namely 4" x 4" x 18". All the Federation and NCAA have decided to do is codify that this imperfect pylon is to be considered the same way you would consider the dimensionless pylon that can only exist in theory. So, we're just going to have to agree to disagree (unless Mr. Diehl gets back to me with a definitive answer). Each of us will need to consider all we've read, all we've learned, all our mentors have told us and process it accordingly. We probably will rule this play differently. If a scrimmage kick rolls into the front face of the pylon, I'll be ruling a touchback; you'll be awarding the ball to R at their own half-inch line. But as Roberto Duran once said, "No mas." Unless someone has something more definitive to offer, I suggest we just move on to other topics. I'm grateful that we've all been able to professionally disagree here with no malice and no juvenile bickering. We've seen plenty of that on some of these discussion boards.
__________________
Bob M.
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