Wednesday question

[kentref]

JV game - NFHS rules.
A is lined up in scrimmage kick formation for a try. The snap is fumbled and the holder picks up the ball and takes off around the left end. He is nearing the sideline when he takes aim at the goal line pylon and goes airborne. He is completely airborne and directly above the sideline when he holds the ball out and contacts the pylon. The pylon is knocked back towards the back of the end zone as the runner contacts the ground out of bounds. At the time the runner contacted the ground the ball was clearly beyond the plane of the goal line (extended) and clearly out of bounds.

Successful try ... or not?

[Snake~eyes]

Sounds like a TD, but I'm not sure if I'm getting it right. The ball hit the pylon before he touched OOB?

[PSU213]

I'm am a little concerned about the holder "fumbling" the snap (if he fumbled it, it would mean he had possession of the ball, but doesn't that mean the snap is over?). Rule 4-2-2 doesn't really deal with a holder fumbling and recovering a snap without his knees leaving the ground.

Also, does it matter that it is a JV game? (sorry to be smart)

[mcrowder]

I have him out of bounds, as described. More detail is needed about where the ball is when it strikes the pylon though.

[MJT]

Originally posted by PSU213
I'm am a little concerned about the holder "fumbling" the snap (if he fumbled it, it would mean he had possession of the ball, but doesn't that mean the snap is over?). Rule 4-2-2 doesn't really deal with a holder fumbling and recovering a snap without his knees leaving the ground.

Also, does it matter that it is a JV game? (sorry to be smart)

No problem with the snapper. He can get up to run or pitch the a grounded snap. What he cannot do is "rise to get a grounded snap and then go back down to a knee."

[Middleman]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I have him out of bounds, as described. More detail is needed about where the ball is when it strikes the pylon though.

No detail needed ... by definition it is out of bounds behind the goal line. Since the runner was airborne he was not yet OOB until the ball hit the pylon.

This is a successful 2-point try, assuming the holder picked up the ball clean after the muffed snap (see MJT post).

[mcrowder]

I don't believe that's correct in either code, middle. Goal-line extended applies to a runner that is NOT airborne.

[ABoselli]

Try is good.

Hitting the (properly placed) pylon with the ball (in runner's possession), whether you're airborne or not is always a score.

[mcrowder]

Rule reference (the whole rule, not just the number)?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Here you go...

NCAA 4-2-3b: “A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.”

NF 4-3-2: “…If the ball touches a pylon, it is out-of-bounds behind the goal line.”

Note that both codes describe the situation as the ball being "behind the goal line" -- not the goal line extended. That would mean that any ball striking the pylon would have had to cross the goal line itself -- a TD by rule if in possession of the opponent of the team defending the goal line in question.

For NCAA, AR 8-2-1 III is the closest thing to the play we're discussing: "Runner A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne at the two-yard line. His first contact with the ground is out of bounds three yards beyond the goal line. The ball, in possession of the runner, passed over the pylon. RULING: Touchdown (Rule 4-2-4-e)." Note that the player did not touch the ground inbounds so the extension of the goal line is immaterial. However, the ruling is still a TD with the ball passing over the pylon. By extension, hitting the pylon with the ball should result in the same ruling.

For Federation, I'm pretty sure there's also a case book play that backs up the ruling of TD. However, I don't have my Case Book with me and the online version is currently offline. I'll see what I can dig up at home tonight to support the Federation ruling of TD.

[ljudge]

Technically you could argue ABoselli's ruling, but HOW could you explain to a coach that the ball touched the outside of the pylon vs. the inside of the pylon OR BETTER YET did it hit the exact inside corner of the pylon. You will need very good vision to see this exactly perfect in order to make a ruling.

Here's a pylon (corners 2 and 4 touching on the sideline)

1...2
3...4

#4 is the exact intersection of the goalline / sideline. As per 2.25.3 if the ball is outside of area 1 & 3 while the player is still airborne then it's not a score. If the ball is outside of area 1 & 3 while still touching inbounds it's a score as per 2.25.3.

But, now in the situation listed. If the ball hits the pylon at points 2 or 4 you should rule TD. If it hits anywhere to the left of 4 then you should rule no TD.

Now HOW can you with full-speed action rule no good. The only way I can see it is if the player has the ball extended pretty far out of bounds (as far as his arm will reach) and while still airborne brings the ball and whacks the side of the pylon between corners 1&3.

Most officials always rule hitting the pylon a TD. Actually I have never seen on any highlights (HS, NCAA, Canadian, NFL, etc.) an official not ruling a TD when the ball hits the pylon. If you want to get technical then I suppose you could rule no score, but you better have the car running if it's a big game and you make that call in the end.

[Jim S]

TECHNICALLY the play would be OB and not a TD. PRACTICALLY, call this one a TD.

[Middleman]

Why, oh why, are you trying to make this more complicated than it is?

[ABoselli]

Thank you.

[waltjp]

Score it.