The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 27, 2004, 09:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 1,023
Bizarre play today in junior high game. Besides the 80-yard field mentioned in the other thread.

Team A driving towards the goal. They throw a pass to the goal line. A2 is already on his knees at the goal line, with his actual kneecaps in the field of play (not behind the goal line) when he catches the ball.

Player's down right when he establishes possession, right? Ball never broke the plane (that I could see, the play was about 20 yards long and I couldn't get to the goal line in a 2-man game to see).

At first I thought touchdown (I'm a rookie - shoot me) because, quite frankly, I wasn't prepared for that to happen. Referee says no, we're going from right there, a few inches away. Completion, first down and goal, right there (and for good measure, since we had that sloping upward end zone, we moved it out just outside the ten and pretended the 10 was the goal line just for that series). A scored anyway.

But if I ever see that again (God, I hope not), somebody hit me with a ruling so I can look all worldly and wise and stuff.
__________________
"And I'm not just some fan, I've refereed football and basketball in addition to all the baseball I've umpired. I've never made a call that horrible in my life in any sport."---Greatest. Official. Ever.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 27, 2004, 11:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 465
Quote:
Originally posted by OverAndBack


But if I ever see that again (God, I hope not), somebody hit me with a ruling so I can look all worldly and wise and stuff.
Try using NF 8-2-1a "It is a touchdown when a runner advances from the field of play so that the ball penetrates the vertical plane of the opponent s goal line".
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 28, 2004, 04:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 842
Send a message via AIM to cowbyfan1 Send a message via Yahoo to cowbyfan1
If his knees where just outside the goal line when he caught the ball and he is facing the LOS then common sense would say down just short of the line. This also depends on if the player is leaning back, forward, etc.
__________________
Jim

Need an out, get an out. Need a run, balk it in.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 28, 2004, 08:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
I can see why you started at the 10, but I think I wouldn't have done that. What would you have done if there was a turnover and B returned the ball? The obvious answer is that you'd have moved it back 10 yards after the return. Would have looked sloppy, but I think your coaches may have gotten it. But what if B scored? Still a score? Or down at the 10. What if B crossed what it thought was the goalline, and A) stopped running and was tackled (is that a late hit? Do you spot him inside the 10 or give the score - he slowed because he crossed what was labelled as the GL) or B) dropped the ball, thinking he'd scored, and the ball was recovered in the EZ (which is actually the area between the 0 and 10, since you "owe" A 10 yards)?

Too many oddities that might occur. Play it from the spot that they got to next time. The slope affects both teams, so ignore it.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 28, 2004, 08:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 1,023
Hopefully I won't see that field again.
__________________
"And I'm not just some fan, I've refereed football and basketball in addition to all the baseball I've umpired. I've never made a call that horrible in my life in any sport."---Greatest. Official. Ever.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 28, 2004, 09:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
The chances of a kid catching the ball with is knees on the ground and being straight up are pretty remote. Those reading this, get down on your knees and pretend you are going to catch a pass...you probably aren't right above your kneecaps...if the kid is falling forward then I would spot it short but the way it sounds (without seeing it live) I would say its pretty tough not to have a touchdown, my guess is the kid was "sitting" on his heels, this would have put the ball across the plane....IMHO...
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 28, 2004, 10:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 1,023
See, this is what I thought. In my mind, if your kneecaps are on one side of a 2-inch (or whatever it is) line and you're not straight up, the ball is likely over the goal line.

But does the "knee down - player down" principle apply here or not? I'm so confused. I think the opposing coach was saying he was down as soon as he caught the ball, which may be true, but he may have been down with the ball in the end zone). I thought it was a TD. The referee, more seasoned than I, said no. There was no complaint. I was inclined to say TD, but I'm the rookie, I'm going to defer since I don't know for sure and that's why I came here to ask you guys.
__________________
"And I'm not just some fan, I've refereed football and basketball in addition to all the baseball I've umpired. I've never made a call that horrible in my life in any sport."---Greatest. Official. Ever.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 28, 2004, 10:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
Yeah, the coach was right he was down, but if you look at forward progress, and touchdown definitions, if the ball broke the plane it should have been a TD, but in your shoes I would have done the same thing, defer to the power so to speak...
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 28, 2004, 09:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Alexandria, LA
Posts: 175
Get on the bus

You can drive a Greyhound bus into the end zone; but if the ball ain't on the bus, it ain't a touchdown.

The ball must break the plane.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 29, 2004, 06:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 1,936
Send a message via Yahoo to waltjp
I recently witnessed a similar play on a punt. The balled sailed over the head of the receiver, bounced, and started rolling toward the goal line.

Several K players circled the ball and one of the kneeled at the goal line so his knees were still in the field and his feet were in the end zone. He caught the ball in his hands when it rolled to him.

From my vantage point (U - trailing the play) it didn't appear that the ball crossed the goal line. Our BJ blew it dead and signaled Touchback.

During halftime I asked the BJ what happened and he explained that the K player had his feet in the end zone.

Uh…okay.

I guessed he sensed where I was going with this and later stated that the ball was in the end zone.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 29, 2004, 10:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,557
Quote:
Originally posted by waltjp
I recently witnessed a similar play on a punt. The balled sailed over the head of the receiver, bounced, and started rolling toward the goal line.

Several K players circled the ball and one of the kneeled at the goal line so his knees were still in the field and his feet were in the end zone. He caught the ball in his hands when it rolled to him.

From my vantage point (U - trailing the play) it didn't appear that the ball crossed the goal line. Our BJ blew it dead and signaled Touchback.

During halftime I asked the BJ what happened and he explained that the K player had his feet in the end zone.

Uh…okay.

I guessed he sensed where I was going with this and later stated that the ball was in the end zone.
Maybe he's just getting ready to work NFL.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 30, 2004, 09:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
Re: Get on the bus

Quote:
Originally posted by chiefgil
You can drive a Greyhound bus into the end zone; but if the ball ain't on the bus, it ain't a touchdown.

The ball must break the plane.
what is your point???
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 01, 2004, 11:31am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Clinton Township, NJ
Posts: 2,065
Quote:
Originally posted by OverAndBack
See, this is what I thought. In my mind, if your kneecaps are on one side of a 2-inch (or whatever it is) line and you're not straight up, the ball is likely over the goal line.

But does the "knee down - player down" principle apply here or not? I'm so confused. I think the opposing coach was saying he was down as soon as he caught the ball, which may be true, but he may have been down with the ball in the end zone). I thought it was a TD. The referee, more seasoned than I, said no. There was no complaint. I was inclined to say TD, but I'm the rookie, I'm going to defer since I don't know for sure and that's why I came here to ask you guys.
REPLY: O&B...from the way you described this play, I'd really be interested in knowing how your R could possibly have felt that he was in a good position to make the call.
__________________
Bob M.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 01, 2004, 03:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 1,023
I could not begin to tell you. Except for the fact that he'd been at this a while, and I was finishing my first year. I'm simply not going to open that can of worms.
__________________
"And I'm not just some fan, I've refereed football and basketball in addition to all the baseball I've umpired. I've never made a call that horrible in my life in any sport."---Greatest. Official. Ever.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:33am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1