Disqualification

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by Bob Lyle

I would have flagged the kid also but I don't find this type of behavior or coach response to be in any way typical.

You sound too bitter and cynical to effectively work youth sports. Sure, some of the coaches are psychos but they are in the distinct minority. The vast majority are dedicated to the kids and appreciative of the officials contributions to the game.

Well, neither you nor Rich know me, and that's alright, sot go ahead and make a "judgment"... Rich didn't go on to say that I would have benched the player even if he had not been ejected (in the context of his reply about the player that got in his face and told him to "mind his own damn business.") BTW kid = young goat, and I happen to think that these young men are not goats, through the course of this posting I am not very fond of the way a minority of people have referred to the youth as "kids" or "lovable youngsters" in a very derrogatory tone. The comment he made above about my mentality of officials are "just hired help" comes from his own "judgment", which again is his perrogative. I beleive quite the contrary, any adult that has an effect upon a young man's life should be responsible for their actions, positive or negative. Youth sports is a great opportunity for learning life's lessons. Occassionally, as you point out, there are some "psychos" in the coaching ranks, but, let's be honest, there are also some out there in the strips that are there for the wrong reasons as well. And the system in place that participants cannot question the "judgment" of officials is ripe for controversy. In our High School league last season, a player from another team was ejected for, in the official's "judgment", throwing a punch during a tackle. Videotaping of the play showed indisputable evidence that anyone could discern that it was clearly a clean tackle. The state never heard or addressed the concerns because his "judgment" cannot be protested. Again, I ask, where is the logic, where is the justice, where is the accountability? I guess no where in our system, but there is a greater system that does hold all of us accountable for our actions...

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by wolfpup27


Well, neither you nor Rich know me, and that's alright, sot go ahead and make a "judgment"... Rich didn't go on to say that I would have benched the player even if he had not been ejected (in the context of his reply about the player that got in his face and told him to "mind his own damn business.") BTW kid = young goat, and I happen to think that these young men are not goats, through the course of this posting I am not very fond of the way a minority of people have referred to the youth as "kids" or "lovable youngsters" in a very derrogatory tone. The comment he made above about my mentality of officials are "just hired help" comes from his own "judgment", which again is his perrogative. I beleive quite the contrary, any adult that has an effect upon a young man's life should be responsible for their actions, positive or negative. Youth sports is a great opportunity for learning life's lessons. Occassionally, as you point out, there are some "psychos" in the coaching ranks, but, let's be honest, there are also some out there in the strips that are there for the wrong reasons as well. And the system in place that participants cannot question the "judgment" of officials is ripe for controversy. In our High School league last season, a player from another team was ejected for, in the official's "judgment", throwing a punch during a tackle. Videotaping of the play showed indisputable evidence that anyone could discern that it was clearly a clean tackle. The state never heard or addressed the concerns because his "judgment" cannot be protested. Again, I ask, where is the logic, where is the justice, where is the accountability? I guess no where in our system, but there is a greater system that does hold all of us accountable for our actions...

"Kid" derives from the German "kinder" meaning child. It has no reference to goats.

Rich, I apologize. This coach is one of the psychos.

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by Bob Lyle

"Kid" derives from the German "kinder" meaning child. It has no reference to goats.

Rich, I apologize. This coach is one of the psychos.

kid: Middle English origin of "kide" and of Scandinavian origin, Old Norwegian "kith", of and pertaining to a young goat, the flesh, fur, or skin of a kid, "kidgloves" - made from the kid leather, or kid skin. (Did you always think that "kidgloves" were something that you wore when you wanted to be nice, and then take them off when you meant business?)

Kinder: derived from German meaning "children" (plural of child), as in "kindergarten" = children + garden.

Sorry everyone, just another referee who can't admit when he's wrong...

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by wolfpup27

kid: Middle English origin of "kide" and of Scandinavian origin, Old Norwegian "kith", of and pertaining to a young goat, the flesh, fur, or skin of a kid, "kidgloves" - made from the kid leather, or kid skin. (Did you always think that "kidgloves" were something that you wore when you wanted to be nice, and then take them off when you meant business?)

Kinder: derived from German meaning "children" (plural of child), as in "kindergarten" = children + garden.

Sorry everyone, just another referee who can't admit when he's wrong...

Keep reading in your dictionary. The third definition of "kid" is "child or youngster derived from the word kinder." It was clear in my original post that I referred to youngsters, not goats.

Your line of logic is typical of the some posters from Chicago. When they can no longer defend their position, they introduce extraneous items into the discussion in order to distract the reader from the foolishness of their positions.

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by Bob Lyle

Keep reading in your dictionary. The third definition of "kid" is "child or youngster derived from the word kinder." It was clear in my original post that I referred to youngsters, not goats.

Your line of logic is typical of the some posters from Chicago. When they can no longer defend their position, they introduce extraneous items into the discussion in order to distract the reader from the foolishness of their positions.

Only a few of you who have replied to my OP stayed on track with my question, and they answered quite well and I understand that there is NO RULE THAT DEFINES BLATENT, or the action that the referee described. It is left up to the "judgment" of the officials. The logic that is very plain to see is that there is no logic to this method; as you have clearly pointed out with story after story after story where a different set of standards are applied depending on the official who is on the field at the time; seems very logical, or is a system fraught with peril (sorry, Bob, for the use of my extensive vocabulary).

(FYI: Bob - "I would have flagged the kid..." from your original post. Look up the word kinder in Webster's dictionary and you will see that it is only used in conjunction with "kindergarten". I would have thrown the "kid" out myself, bell probably dangling from its neck causing a raucous. Oops, sorry, 'nuther obscure word for you to ponder about its origins.)

[Rich]

Originally posted by Bob Lyle

"Kid" derives from the German "kinder" meaning child. It has no reference to goats.

Rich, I apologize. This coach is one of the psychos.

Hey, I had a rough Saturday. I had to eject a kid (calling him a goat would be an insult to goats everywhere) and then find out later that he threatened (likely just running his mouth, I realize) to "put a cap in my a$$." And then his coach defended him and kept cornering me as I tried to leave the field, demanding that I sit there and listen to his rationalization.

So yeah, I might be a little cynical and bitter, but it's Wednesday and I'll have a smile on my face Friday night and Saturday morning like I always do.

The one thing I find amazing is that kids don't act this way in high school games for the most part -- it's the out of control rec stuff 90% of the time where these incidents happen. I'm convinced it's because the coaches are accountable to a principal, superintendent, and school board. Many of the rec coaches seem to be accountable to noone.

--Rich

[Rich]

Originally posted by wolfpup27

Only a few of you who have replied to my OP stayed on track with my question, and they answered quite well and I understand that there is NO RULE THAT DEFINES BLATENT, or the action that the referee described. It is left up to the "judgment" of the officials. The logic that is very plain to see is that there is no logic to this method; as you have clearly pointed out with story after story after story where a different set of standards are applied depending on the official who is on the field at the time; seems very logical, or is a system fraught with peril (sorry, Bob, for the use of my extensive vocabulary).

(FYI: Bob - "I would have flagged the kid..." from your original post. Look up the word kinder in Webster's dictionary and you will see that it is only used in conjunction with "kindergarten". I would have thrown the "kid" out myself, bell probably dangling from its neck causing a raucous. Oops, sorry, 'nuther obscure word for you to ponder about its origins.)

Do you mean a ruckus?

Get over it already. The official determined that the KID deserved to be ejected. Whine to your league if you feel it will help.

What's funny about our youth league is that we hand rating cards to the coaches before each game. Not sure what they are for, since these programs can't FIND people willing to work. It's so bad that even paying $35-$45 per game for 9 minute quarters many of the locations have to beg and plead to find three people willing to work.

Why? Because of the coaches and parents.

[MJT]

Did the crew discuss it? On our crew, we have always said that we will discuss any possible DQ situation. If we would end up DQing a player, I would signal it and then go over with my umpire and give a very detailed explaination to the coach.

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Hey, I had a rough Saturday. I had to eject a kid (calling him a goat would be an insult to goats everywhere) and then find out later that he threatened (likely just running his mouth, I realize) to "put a cap in my a$$." And then his coach defended him and kept cornering me as I tried to leave the field, demanding that I sit there and listen to his rationalization.

So yeah, I might be a little cynical and bitter, but it's Wednesday and I'll have a smile on my face Friday night and Saturday morning like I always do.

The one thing I find amazing is that kids don't act this way in high school games for the most part -- it's the out of control rec stuff 90% of the time where these incidents happen. I'm convinced it's because the coaches are accountable to a principal, superintendent, and school board. Many of the rec coaches seem to be accountable to noone.

--Rich

And that's where you are wrong... "rec" coaches, well at least this one - I can't speak for all others, have an even more discernable group that holds their actions to an even higher accountablity, and that's the parents. I, for one, also have a Board of Directors of the program to account to, as well as a Board of Commissioners of our League that I have to account to. A few years ago, a coach was ejected from a game by an official and the action was so bad that, as a League, we banned him from ever coaching again. Last year, in my program, there was an incident between two of coaches, and after hearing out the problem, our Board removed one of the coaches from the program and will not ever allow him to volunteer again to even sell pizza at the refreshment stand; he's lucky to be able to come into the stadium to watch his son play. So, please don't discount our efforts either. Like you have continually said, there are some bad ones out there, but generally we're good guys trying to make a difference. Just as I have been saying all along that the same is true for the officials.

Yeah, I think you're quite cynical, Rich, and I'm sorry for that; as I am as well, because of bad situations that don't seem to make sense from either of our perspectives. I gain more appreciation for officlas by getting on the "other side" as often as I can. I umpire Little League and Babe Ruth during the spring. Most of the coaches know me and respect me because I am a no nonsense kind of guy. Let the players have fun and enjoy the game. Don't make the umpire be more than a spectator that calls balls, strikes, safe, & out. I haven't gone into the high school levels, even at the behest of our local officals association, because I don't have the time.

So, Rich I guess we are agreeable on all of our points, in a very unusual way. I take offense at statements and words that have the appearance of demeaning these young men. Maybe that player and that coach also had a bad day and were very cynical towards you as an official, doesn't make it right what they did... and I don't condone their behavior. What I worry about is each of our actions; do they stand the test that we did everything that we honestly thought was the best course of action in any given situation. If we can truly say that without reservation, then I trust you, just as I trust myself to make that same discernment.

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by wolfpup27


And that's where you are wrong... "rec" coaches, well at least this one - I can't speak for all others, have an even more discernable group that holds their actions to an even higher accountablity, and that's the parents. I, for one, also have a Board of Directors of the program to account to, as well as a Board of Commissioners of our League that I have to account to.

I've gotta go with Rich on this one. Rec coaches and players behave far worse than their counterparts in FED ball. As far as higher accountability and parents, forget it. The parents at rec games are the worst of the lot.

It's true that a board of directors can keep a tight lid on things. Unfortunately, many of the boards have abdicated their responsibility.

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Do you mean a ruckus?

Get over it already. The official determined that the KID deserved to be ejected. Whine to your league if you feel it will help.

What's funny about our youth league is that we hand rating cards to the coaches before each game. Not sure what they are for, since these programs can't FIND people willing to work. It's so bad that even paying $35-$45 per game for 9 minute quarters many of the locations have to beg and plead to find three people willing to work.

Why? Because of the coaches and parents.

If I had meant "ruckus", that's what I would have said. But I said "raucous" to give a deeper meaning and feeling to my phrase. "Ruckus" is merely a disturbance. "Raucous" means boisterously disorderly. As they as synonymic (words that have similar meanings), they could be used interchangeably, but I think my use of "raucous" was much more appropriate.

Actually, as we all know, "whining" to the league will not help as NFHS rules state that offical's judgement can not be appealed. There is no recourse that can be taken. That wasn't the point of my OP, it was just to get other's opinions and to see if there was something that I was missing as a coach, as it appeared that the official was describing a predetermined definition that made the action an "automatic ejection", similar to the good old fashioned clothesline.

It is a shame about the lack of support that your officials are given at the youth levels, and vice versa. Several years ago, before I became the facilitator of our league, we had similar problems. We couldn't pay enough to have officials come out for us. We instituted procedures to help this out, and one of the procedures was to review these types of personal fouls and ejections. In some case we've imposed harsher penalties including disqualifying players for the entire season, removing coaches from the sideline permanently, and disallowing parnts who cause problems from even enrolling their player. This has made tremendous differences. As a matter of fact, just this morning, I received a message from the assigning secretary for our local officials association that our league play-offs will be fully staffed at merely $20 per game. I think that this is a huge success, seeing where we came from just a few short years ago.

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by Bob Lyle

I've gotta go with Rich on this one. Rec coaches and players behave far worse than their counterparts in FED ball. As far as higher accountability and parents, forget it. The parents at rec games are the worst of the lot.

It's true that a board of directors can keep a tight lid on things. Unfortunately, many of the boards have abdicated their responsibility.

Bob, I agree, when people don't take their committments seriously, that is what we get in return. Don't lump all youth coaches into the same heap; just as I refuse to lump all officials together. As in a comparison, you don't hear what's going on in the stands in "FED" ball; and believe me, it is far worse than in youth ball. It is a completely higher level of competition; players futures are on the line if they hope to move into the college ranks. In my experience, youth parents really only care if their child is on the field and having fun. Yes, they like to win but what's more important is fun. Successful youth programs emphasize participation and winning as a by product of a team effort. There are some out there that do not share that philosophy, and that is sad; who is really wininng then..?

[Rich]

Originally posted by wolfpup27

If I had meant "ruckus", that's what I would have said. But I said "raucous" to give a deeper meaning and feeling to my phrase. "Ruckus" is merely a disturbance. "Raucous" means boisterously disorderly. As they as synonymic (words that have similar meanings), they could be used interchangeably, but I think my use of "raucous" was much more appropriate.

Actually, as we all know, "whining" to the league will not help as NFHS rules state that offical's judgement can not be appealed. There is no recourse that can be taken. That wasn't the point of my OP, it was just to get other's opinions and to see if there was something that I was missing as a coach, as it appeared that the official was describing a predetermined definition that made the action an "automatic ejection", similar to the good old fashioned clothesline.

It is a shame about the lack of support that your officials are given at the youth levels, and vice versa. Several years ago, before I became the facilitator of our league, we had similar problems. We couldn't pay enough to have officials come out for us. We instituted procedures to help this out, and one of the procedures was to review these types of personal fouls and ejections. In some case we've imposed harsher penalties including disqualifying players for the entire season, removing coaches from the sideline permanently, and disallowing parnts who cause problems from even enrolling their player. This has made tremendous differences. As a matter of fact, just this morning, I received a message from the assigning secretary for our local officials association that our league play-offs will be fully staffed at merely $20 per game. I think that this is a huge success, seeing where we came from just a few short years ago.

Well, I never thought raucous was a noun. Never mind.

Agreed on the rest, though. And I'm sure there are many programs out there that work this way. I'm involved with one such program, but in baseball -- a local Little League that, for the most part, treats its umpires with respect.

And a basketball league in the winter, too.

It's never been about the money for me. In the winter I work a Saturday youth basketball league in a small town that pays me less than a much closer league would pay per game. Why? In two seasons I've never had a single technical foul there and never a single problem with a coach and sometimes we do six games a day. At the end of each of the past two seasons I've received a thank you card from the league. I'm sure I'll go back this season, if I'm able (my wife's due in January and I plan on cutting back a bit this season).

Two more games and the white pants go away for another season.

--Rich