The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 10:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 63
Send a message via MSN to MI Official Send a message via Skype™ to MI Official
Question

For years I have beenbagging muffed exchanges between the center and QB. However, a couple of my "all-world" officials(self-prescribed) indicated that this practice was incorrect. That this was not a looses ball because there was no possession of the offense at the time the ball hit the ground. They indicated that possession is only established when the exchange is successful? I am not sure what to think about this. but for now I am going to bag it. Is it the concensus of this board that it should/ should not be bagged?
__________________
That looked just ugly enough to be legal.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Ask yourself why you are bagging it ... can that spot matter?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:23am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 25
Mishandling the snap is actually the QB muffing a backward pass and NOT a fumble. You don't throw the bean bag on muffed backward passes, only fumbles.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:32am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,557
No bag.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 11:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
I agree that it is not necessary to bag it, as it is a loose ball play and the basic spot would be the previous spot. However, I find it hard to process the thought that quickly and find it easier to bag all fumbles even though some of them are unneccesarily bagged... I also think it looks good to have a bag or two on the ground to indicate that we have seen a fumble...IMHO...
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 01:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 13
Possession was begun as soon as the center put his hands on the ball. Even if the snap is "muffed", it still is possible for B to gain possession. Anytime a ball is fumbled, muffed, passed, or kicked, it is a loose ball. Consequently, a beanbag is needed since this becomes a spot for enforcement. Many times a quarterback picks up the loose ball and continues before the beanbag can be thrown. It this occures, I do not throw the beanbag at the spot.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 02:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally posted by INDYREF
Anytime a ball is fumbled, muffed, passed, or kicked, it is a loose ball. Consequently, a beanbag is needed since this becomes a spot for enforcement.
You must carry about 10 beanbags if you bag all those spots. There's no need to bag a muffed snap, a muffed backward pass behind the LOS or a fumble behind the LOS because the spot serves no purpose for enforcement.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 02:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Kirkland, Washington
Posts: 422
Send a message via ICQ to Jim S Send a message via AIM to Jim S
After all these years we actually had a situation where it showed why a bag should not be used behind the line. QB was scrambling and running toward the line. Was hit from behind by a B player and the ball came loose . The U, who was directly in front of the play, threw a bag to mark the spot where the ball came loose. The R, who was trailing, and on the other side of the ball carier, came up and called it aan incomplete pass. LJ also had a fumble and was marking the spot of recovery.

__________________
Jim Schroeder

Read Rule 2, Read Rule 2, Read Rule 2!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 03:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
Jim,
While I said above that I bag them even if unnecessary what purpose did the bag serve???
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 23, 2004, 10:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 522
Quote:
Originally posted by INDYREF
Possession was begun as soon as the center put his hands on the ball. Even if the snap is "muffed", it still is possible for B to gain possession. Anytime a ball is fumbled, muffed, passed, or kicked, it is a loose ball. Consequently, a beanbag is needed since this becomes a spot for enforcement. Many times a quarterback picks up the loose ball and continues before the beanbag can be thrown. It this occures, I do not throw the beanbag at the spot.
The spot of a legal forward pass, the spot of a muff, or the spot of a legal kick is never an enforcement spot. Also, when a receiver drops a pass it is a muff. Do you bag this?

As for the original question, the spot of a muffed snap is (believe it or not) the spot of a muff and is never an enforcement spot, so no bag is necessary.
__________________
If the play is designed to fool someone, make sure you aren't the fool.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 24, 2004, 05:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
I agree that it is not necessary to bag it, as it is a loose ball play and the basic spot would be the previous spot. However, I find it hard to process the thought that quickly and find it easier to bag all fumbles even though some of them are unneccesarily bagged... I also think it looks good to have a bag or two on the ground to indicate that we have seen a fumble...IMHO...
Usually I would agree with you, but a few weeks ago I was at U and was pulling out my bag to throw to a fumble spot just behind the line (real fumble, not bad snap), and wooosh, my bag flew out of my hand about 20 yards upfield!
I guess my arm twitched just before I released, but boy did it look bad!

James
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 24, 2004, 06:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Indianola, Ia
Posts: 319
Somebody said above that you should not bean bag fumbles that are behind the line of scrimmage.

I am thinking that this is not true.

A's ball at B's 40. 1st and 10

A10 is running behind the line of scrimmage and fumbles the ball on B's 45. A recovers the ball on B's 38.

Prior to the fumble A55 holds on B's 44.

To me the hold is taking place during the run and the run ends where A10 fumbles the ball. B's 45.

So the penalty will be marked 10 yards back from the end of the run or the spot of a bean bag where the fumble occurs.

A's ball 1 and 25 from A's 45.

Whatcha all think, is this correct?
__________________
"Call what you see and see what you call!"
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 24, 2004, 01:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 1,319
Quote:
Originally posted by INDYREF
Possession was begun as soon as the center put his hands on the ball. Even if the snap is "muffed", it still is possible for B to gain possession. Anytime a ball is fumbled, muffed, passed, or kicked, it is a loose ball. Consequently, a beanbag is needed since this becomes a spot for enforcement. Many times a quarterback picks up the loose ball and continues before the beanbag can be thrown. It this occures, I do not throw the beanbag at the spot.
A beanbag for the spot is only necessary under NFHS rules when a ball comes loose beyond the neutral zone. Any foul that occurs when the ball comes loose behind the neutral zone will be enforced from the previous spot. This includes a muffed snap.
__________________
Mike Sears
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 24, 2004, 01:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 1,319
Quote:
Originally posted by BoBo
Somebody said above that you should not bean bag fumbles that are behind the line of scrimmage.

I am thinking that this is not true.

A's ball at B's 40. 1st and 10

A10 is running behind the line of scrimmage and fumbles the ball on B's 45. A recovers the ball on B's 38.

Prior to the fumble A55 holds on B's 44.

To me the hold is taking place during the run and the run ends where A10 fumbles the ball. B's 45.

So the penalty will be marked 10 yards back from the end of the run or the spot of a bean bag where the fumble occurs.

A's ball 1 and 25 from A's 45.

Whatcha all think, is this correct?
basic spot would still be previous spot because you had a fumble that originated behind the line of scrimmage. No need to bag A's fumble. The ONLY time I can see bagging a fumble behind the line of scrimmage is if A fumbles, B picks it up, runs to A's side of the line and then fumbles.
__________________
Mike Sears
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 24, 2004, 01:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally posted by BoBo
Somebody said above that you should not bean bag fumbles that are behind the line of scrimmage.

I am thinking that this is not true.

A's ball at B's 40. 1st and 10

A10 is running behind the line of scrimmage and fumbles the ball on B's 45. A recovers the ball on B's 38.

Prior to the fumble A55 holds on B's 44.

To me the hold is taking place during the run and the run ends where A10 fumbles the ball. B's 45.

So the penalty will be marked 10 yards back from the end of the run or the spot of a bean bag where the fumble occurs.

A's ball 1 and 25 from A's 45.

Whatcha all think, is this correct?
No, it's not correct.

A loose ball play is a backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or a fumble made by team A from in or behind the neutral zone before any change of team possession or any run(s) which precedes the legal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass, or fumble. The basic spot is the previous spot for fouls which occor during loose ball play (there are a couple of exceptions). Therefore, the penalty occurred behind the basic spot (the previous spot) and the spot of enforcement would be the spot of the penalty, B's 44. A's ball 1st and 24 from A's 46.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:36pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1