Batting kicks

maroon · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 13, 2004, 01:57am

Hey guys,
Been lurking around for a while, but figured I would finally tap your minds.

Here you go:
On a long kick, (free or scrimmage) R muffs the ball at his 4-yd line. Seeing the kicking team bear down on him, he then illegally bats the ball from the 4 into the end zone for a touchback. This is how i see it enforced (NF):

Scrimmage kick: half the distance from the spot of the foul because it is behind the PSK spot of the 20 (from the touchback). So R's ball on the 2

Free kick: The way i see it, on free kicks it will not be a spot foul because the kick never ended. So the basic spot would then be the succeeding spot (the 20 from the touchback) and then half the distance from there. So R's ball on the 10.

The free kick enforcement just doesn't seem right, though, since R gains from committing a foul. So what am I missing?

This almost happened in a game for me last week but my partner covering the receiver ruled a second muff forced it into the endzone rather than an illegal bat.

Thanks a lot.

cowbyfan1 · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 13, 2004, 02:53am

If R muffs it and then bats it into and thru his own end zone it would be a safety. After he muffed it, the kick is over and thus the bat would be a new force.

Jim S · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 13, 2004, 04:50am

Not under federation rules cowboyfan. A kick is a kick is a kick......
A kick never ends until it is possessed or becomes dead by rule. 2.23.2
AND
Force is never a factor on kicks going into R's EZ. 2.13.4a

The enforcement for a bat on the free kick is the previous spot since this is a loose ball play. So K can accept and re-kick from 15 yards up. Or, decline and give R the touchback.

(BTW, it may have been obstruction somewhere, that just makes it look and smell like an out. Award the base where appropriate.)

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 13th, 2004 at 06:11 PM]

jimbulger1 · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 13, 2004, 03:20pm

The first rule i EVER HAD BEATEN INTO my head was a KICK IS A KICK UNTIL POSSESED OR BLOWN DEAD

maroon · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 13, 2004, 04:37pm

Okay, so it is a replay of the free kick?

I was looking at 10-4-5d which says "the basic spot is the succeeding spot when the final result is a touchback"

Even so, it still seems unfair to K. If I was R's coach I would tell my receiver if he gets in trouble before the ball is caught or recovered, i'd rather have him knock it out the back and take my chances on the replay rather end up with the ball on the 4 (or possibly turning it over).

PSU213 · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 13, 2004, 07:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim S
(BTW, it may have been obstruction somewhere, that just makes it look and smell like an out. Award the base where appropriate.)

Maybe I am being dense (a distinct possibility), but what do you mean by this? Just curious, thanks.

cowbyfan1 · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 14, 2004, 04:48am

Yeah I got thinking about that after I posted it and did not have a chance to correct it.
That is a pain of a rule tho because by muffing it K can recover and have it be their ball (tho they cannot advance it). So in essence by muffing the kick, R has in a sense established possession since they can lose it if K recovers. Plus in this case, it is obvious that R caused the ball to go thru the end zone. They should be penalized (more than 2 yards in this case). That is a play that is going to cause the K team to have a fit if they do not know the rule.

Maybe a good rules change would be that the kick is over once R has touched the ball.

Jaysef · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 14, 2004, 11:53am

As JimS pointed out...

"The enforcement for a bat on the free kick is the previous spot since this is a loose ball play. So K can accept and re-kick from 15 yards up. Or, decline and give R the touchback."

this holds for a free kick as well as a scrimmage kick if I am not mistaken. Anybody correct me if I'm booting this one...
Jaysef

Forksref · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 14, 2004, 01:23pm

The kick ain't over till the fat lady sings.

SJoldguy · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 14, 2004, 01:49pm

To jaysef:

In NFHS the scrimmage kick bat is a PSK foul. Therefore the basic spot is the R20 due to the touchback and the spot of enforcement is the B4 (spot of the foul)In PSK the spot of the end of the kick is the basic spot except in case where the kick ends in a touchback. Then the R20 is the basic spot. If a foul occurs behind the basic spot in PSK , the penalty is measured from the spot of the foul.