Referees: Int Grounding

[sm_bbcoach]

2 questiona re: Int Grounding.

1). A12 dropps back to pass to the right flat. A88 runs a sprint 10 yds down field, then cuts to a post pattern. A88 cut then A12's legal pass falls to the ground. There is no one in the area of the pass. INT GROUND?


2). Who make the call on this play (happened yesterday).

A12 takes the snap, rolls to his left. Stops and throws back to the right side of the field (across the grain of the play). The rush is on him. To me (the white hat) it appeared that he set to throw a pass back across the field. 3 B players (call them B56; B43; & B67) all are rushing him. As A12 throws the ball, B56 jumps inthe air for the ball. B56 (and the rest of them) do a great job of not hitting A12 (i am doing my job to protect him). All other players have gone tothe left side. The ball falls to the ground near the numbers. The defense is calling for Int Grnd. I have no idea if a player broke his route, fell down, or the Qb just dumped the ball.
Can the wings / BJ help me out with this play?
Should the throw a flag, thenwave it off later or come in and discuss it with me, then I will drop the flag for IG after discussion?

What is proper about this play???

I can see and cover most IG plays, but this one, moving away then protecting the QB, I could not see anything.......

Thanks!!!

[JRutledge]

The Referee is the person that makes this call.

The other officials might offer information if need be. But first and foremost this is the Referee that makes this call and throws the flag. No one else should throw a flag for this.

Peace

[schmitty1973]

I just asked this question to my WH yesterday on the way to a game, I'm usually the HL and asked him about IG. He basicly said that he is the one that throws the flag, but he needs the linemen to let him know if no receivers were in the area. His reason was that he needs to keep an eye on the QB to make sure there's no roughing, so it's hard for him to watch downfield. If there are no receivers, then we let him know and he throws the flag then.

[ABoselli]

1) The key to me on IG is intent. If a guy runs the wrong route or falls down or is taken out of the play somehow, all happening while or near the time of the throw, I can't see calling grounding. You have to rely on your wing's input, though. They saw the downfield stuff and can come in and advise as to whether or not any of those things happened. To me, a wrong route is a square-in when a square-out is called - not a fly when a button hook is called and the ball lands near no one late in the play.

If a flanker or wideout runs straight down the field or a post at full speed from the snap, I'm not buying the story of a wrong route if the qb chucks it into the flat under a heavy rush.

It may be splitting hairs, but even a wrong route isn't an excuse in a lot of cases. Lots of fouls are a result of doing something stupid without ill intent - ineligible downfield, illegal touching, illegal shift etc. - and A has to take their medicine sometimes as a result.

2) I'd be inclined to throw it (you - the R) and pick it up if need be. Picking up a flag after a short conference is preferable to tossing one after a short conference, in my opinion.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
2 questiona re: Int Grounding.

1). A12 dropps back to pass to the right flat. A88 runs a sprint 10 yds down field, then cuts to a post pattern. A88 cut then A12's legal pass falls to the ground. There is no one in the area of the pass. INT GROUND?


2). Who make the call on this play (happened yesterday).

A12 takes the snap, rolls to his left. Stops and throws back to the right side of the field (across the grain of the play). The rush is on him. To me (the white hat) it appeared that he set to throw a pass back across the field. 3 B players (call them B56; B43; & B67) all are rushing him. As A12 throws the ball, B56 jumps inthe air for the ball. B56 (and the rest of them) do a great job of not hitting A12 (i am doing my job to protect him). All other players have gone tothe left side. The ball falls to the ground near the numbers. The defense is calling for Int Grnd. I have no idea if a player broke his route, fell down, or the Qb just dumped the ball.
Can the wings / BJ help me out with this play?
Should the throw a flag, thenwave it off later or come in and discuss it with me, then I will drop the flag for IG after discussion?

What is proper about this play???

I can see and cover most IG plays, but this one, moving away then protecting the QB, I could not see anything.......

Thanks!!!

1. To me, this just sounds like a blown pattern. I believe that the incomplete pass was not intentional, as you did not mention that the QB was engaged by a defender. A was penalized a loss of down due to their miscommunication. There is no need to flag this play.

2. Preface: In Canadian amateur ball, any official can call IG. In fact, it has been a point of emphasis this summer because if the QB is about to get drilled by a late hit or otherwise, the R needs to judge on this carefully and properly. He should not have to look up to see where a ball lands and where eligible receivers are, since there are other officials that can help.

After reading this play, and should it happen in Canada, you did the proper thing by staying the QB to cover your responsibility: the QB! We could have a side guy or deep guy (we have two because our field if 50% bigger) throw a flag for IG, but it is quite possible that it was just a blown pattern. Having said that, you can always pick up a flag and wave it off, but you cannot throw a flag late (beyond a reasonable reaction time to the play).

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by JRutledge
The Referee is the person that makes this call.

The other officials might offer information if need be. But first and foremost this is the Referee that makes this call and throws the flag. No one else should throw a flag for this.

Peace

I do agree about throwing the flag, AND watching the QB. I guess whatI am realling asking is HOW do youpersonaly watch the QB and see if it is IG???????????????

The play I described (in #2) happened, and I only knew it was incomplete. The defense was calling for IG, but I ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA is was IG. The HL AND BJ came in and asked my why I did not throw it. I explained why. They all said it was IG. SO please give me some insight as to how youwould get this called AND protect the QB.

I am inclined to allow a wing to throw a flag, confer, determine if IG and either mark it off OR pick it up.


Thanks!

[Snake~eyes]

Like said above, it is the R's duty to call this. I think the best way sm_bbcoach, is to just glance over and see if there is anyone in the area real quick as the ball hits the ground. If you're unsure just dropt he flag and go over and talk to the nearest wing official. Ask him if there was anyone around. Best thing to do is to make sure to add this in the pregame. Good luck out there, hope you have a great season.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
Like said above, it is the R's duty to call this. I think the best way sm_bbcoach, is to just glance over and see if there is anyone in the area real quick as the ball hits the ground. If you're unsure just dropt he flag and go over and talk to the nearest wing official. Ask him if there was anyone around. Best thing to do is to make sure to add this in the pregame. Good luck out there, hope you have a great season.

Having only the R able to throw a flag for IG is, pardon my French, just plain stupid.

[mikesears]

I wouldn't say it is stupid. I think the R is usually in the best position to determine if some action on the QB caused an errant pass (especially with 4 or 5-man crews).

I do agree it can be difficult (if not down-right impossible) to know if there were any eligibles in the area. My wings will let me know if they didn't have an eligible in the area and allow me to throw the flag. Trust me, the worst thing an R can do is wave off ANOTHER officials flag for IG. (I did this with a rookie official once and we both got our butts chewed on). It looks better if he waves off his own flag after another official confers with him.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
I do agree about throwing the flag, AND watching the QB. I guess whatI am realling asking is HOW do youpersonaly watch the QB and see if it is IG???????????????

Really easy. You glance to see where they throw the ball. If you are not too close, you can see the entire play easily.

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
The play I described (in #2) happened, and I only knew it was incomplete. The defense was calling for IG, but I ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA is was IG. The HL AND BJ came in and asked my why I did not throw it. I explained why. They all said it was IG. SO please give me some insight as to how youwould get this called AND protect the QB.

Maybe you are too close to the play. Also where the ball goes is not the only issue to make this call under. The QB cannot just dump the ball while under duress either. So where the ball goes is not the only thing you have to judge. Did he just dump the ball because he knew he was going to get hit and lose yardage? It sounds like you might have been too close. You can always throw the flag, and then pick it up with information from your partner.

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
I am inclined to allow a wing to throw a flag, confer, determine if IG and either mark it off OR pick it up.

You could be inclined, but that would not follow any mechanics at any level. This is the Referee's call and the Referee's call alone. No other official has any responsibility with the QB or passer the way the Referee does. Just like a pass or a fumble with the arm of the QB or a roughing call on a QB or kicker. Those calls belong to the Referee. You have to get an angle to make those calls and watch the initial release of the ball. You do not have to see if the ball is completed or not all the time, but you should be able to tell where the ball goes. You can easily tell if there was someone in the area. If you think there was no one there, you throw the flag, and then have your partners confirm or deny what you saw. You could even wait a couple of seconds and make eye contact and verbalize what he might have seen. But that is all a pregame issue and should be discussed before you get out on the field.

Peace

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Really easy. You glance to see where they throw the ball. If you are not too close, you can see the entire play easily.

Maybe you are too close to the play. Also where the ball goes is not the only issue to make this call under. The QB cannot just dump the ball while under duress either. So where the ball goes is not the only thing you have to judge. Did he just dump the ball because he knew he was going to get hit and lose yardage? It sounds like you might have been too close. You can always throw the flag, and then pick it up with information from your partner.

You could be inclined, but that would not follow any mechanics at any level. This is the Referee's call and the Referee's call alone. No other official has any responsibility with the QB or passer the way the Referee does...
Peace

Have to agree eith Rut on this one.

R has responsibility for the QB. He can observe the QB's action and intent. Had a LJ pull his flag last season without seeing the whole play. If there is doubt either you are not sure of he is grounding, or, there is no receiver in the area and you suspect he is grounding, give him the benefit of the doubt and quitely let him know what you thought you saw. It won't happen again.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

Having only the R able to throw a flag for IG is, pardon my French, just plain stupid.

Stupid? Sounds like a big overstatement on that. You would be the first person to allow their wings to call IG, maybe Canadian is just different. Also, if you're going to make a comment like that why don't you atleast give some backing behind it, to why it is stupid instead of hit and run.

You have to beable to see the action of the QB to call IG. What if he gets hit and the ball goes to a receiverless spot? The wings should not see this as they have a lot of other responsblilites to be watching.

Just my 2 cents.

[sm_bbcoach]

Thanks to all who chimmed in on this. After reading each reply, I am every so convinced that I was just too close to the play. I did not think of that until I read that thought. I usually begin 15 yds behind the LOS, but as the play moved left, I did not keep my line. I did in fact move up towards the LOS, and then closed in on the QB.

I messed up the whole coverage and mechanic on the play. MY HUGE BAD!

Thanks to the great people on the board, I have found the errror of my ways, and will NOT repeat it again.

If anything, it came up with some interesting discussion!~

Thanks!!!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by mikesears
I wouldn't say it is stupid. I think the R is usually in the best position to determine if some action on the QB caused an errant pass (especially with 4 or 5-man crews).

I do agree it can be difficult (if not down-right impossible) to know if there were any eligibles in the area. My wings will let me know if they didn't have an eligible in the area and allow me to throw the flag. Trust me, the worst thing an R can do is wave off ANOTHER officials flag for IG. (I did this with a rookie official once and we both got our butts chewed on). It looks better if he waves off his own flag after another official confers with him.

Let's keep in mind that philosophies that I know well and subscribe to are within the Canadian game. It is worth considering if field size has an effect on mechanics.

I too agree that the R is in the best position to see if some action on the QB caused an errant pass. In fact, his opinion should be sufficiently greater than any other official's. I also agree that the R may not have the best opinion about who was "in the area" on a forward pass.

When you say that worst thing that can happen is for the R to wave off another's flag for IG, do you mean that the LJ faces the coaches, throws his flag to the ground, and voices with a penalty declined signal, "There is no flag for intentional grounding?"

The method here in Canada is after a flag is thrown for IG (by other than the R), that official and the R confer, and the R reports the IG or non-IG call. The is great communication. Often the R will also have a flag. But if the worst thing an R can do is wave off another official's IG flag, it must be a US football thing. And that I think is largely based on field size (over 3,500 square yards difference).

Maybe stupid is overkill. But I still think the side guy should be able to throw a flag for IG.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

Stupid? Sounds like a big overstatement on that. You would be the first person to allow their wings to call IG, maybe Canadian is just different. Also, if you're going to make a comment like that why don't you atleast give some backing behind it, to why it is stupid instead of hit and run.

You have to beable to see the action of the QB to call IG. What if he gets hit and the ball goes to a receiverless spot? The wings should not see this as they have a lot of other responsblilites to be watching.

Just my 2 cents.

No hit and run - see my points in my first post on this subject; specifically the last paragraph. My views between posting times has not changed.

Here in Canada, if we have receiver coverage, we have to know when the ball was thrown. If there is illegal contact against a receiver, and it is before the pass was thrown, it is a 10 yard foul; and if it is after the ball is thrown, it is a different foul. Perhaps that mechanic difference affects the calling of IG.

The way I see it is IG is a foul that occurs over a span of distance. (Other than holding which typically happens at one location.) That distance is the spot of release, and the spot to where the ball was thrown. I don't see it necessary to have the R to rule on both spots and the side guy only on one.