NCAA - Roughing The Passer

[JMN]

A 4/10 @ B-40. QB A12 completes a legal forward pass to A90 who advances to the B-28 where he fumbles the ball. A62 recovers A90's fumble at the B-35 (does not advance). B51 roughs the passer during the play.

What's the NCAA ruling and enforcement on the play? Clock?

[Theisey]

NCAA:
RTP fouls are enforced from the end of the "last" run if that run ended beyond the NZ other wise the previous spot is used.
It's also an automatic 1st down after a 15 yard penalty is enforced.

A's ball 1/10 at B-20 as the 15yard penalty is marked off from the B-35 as that's where the last run ended.
The clock is on the snap because had there not been a penalty, the clock was stopped to award team-B a 1st down.

[JMN]

Theisey,

OK, I'm with you. Here's the play I meant to present:

A 4/10 @ B-40. QB A12 completes a legal forward pass to A90 who advances to the B-35 where he fumbles the ball. A62 recovers A90's fumble at the B-42(does not advance). B51 roughs the passer during the play.

Does the 4th down fumble rule come into play?

[Uncle Ernie]

Hi Guys,

Just my thoughts...

The 4th down fumble rule still applies here. When A62 recovers A90's fumble, the ball is dead. Since the recovery was behind the spot of the fumble, it is dead at that spot.

I believe we still enforce the RTP from the end of the run (B28), half the distance and an auto 1st down. We still start on the snap since the clock was stopped to award B a first down.

So...
A 1/10 B14. Clock on the snap.
(3-2-5e, 7-2-2b ex 2, 10-2-2c1)

[JMN]

Originally posted by Uncle Ernie
Hi Guys,

Just my thoughts...

The 4th down fumble rule still applies here. When A62 recovers A90's fumble, the ball is dead. Since the recovery was behind the spot of the fumble, it is dead at that spot.

I believe we still enforce the RTP from the end of the run (B28), half the distance and an auto 1st down. We still start on the snap since the clock was stopped to award B a first down.

So...
A 1/10 B14. Clock on the snap.
(3-2-5e, 7-2-2b ex 2, 10-2-2c1)

I posted a subsequent play that may confuse the issue, but the same principles should apply.


Ernie, the second half of 7-2-2b exc 2, says ...If the fumble is recovered BEHIND the spot of the fumble by a Team A player OTHER THAN the Team A fumbler, the ball is dead AT THAT SPOT.

This would lead me to believe that the end of the last run is the spot where A62 recovers A90's fumble.

So here are my questions:

a) Is this correct based on the 4th down fumble rule?
b) Does this conflict with 10-2-2c.2 regarding runs that end behind the NZ?

The issue at hand is determining the basic spot for penalty enforement inolving the 4th down fumble rule, a recovery of the fumble by A (not the fumbler) behind the NZ and behind the spot of the fumble.

I've also referenced 2-30-4a (Running play) and 2-25-10b (Basic spot; running plays behind the NZ)

Maybe I'm overly complicating this and should just use the previous spot, but it is not yet clear to me that this is correct by rule.

HELP! (for anyone else posting, please use my 2nd post for reference purposes)

[Theisey]

Originally posted by JMN
Theisey,

OK, I'm with you. Here's the play I meant to present:

A 4/10 @ B-40. QB A12 completes a legal forward pass to A90 who advances to the B-35 where he fumbles the ball. A62 recovers A90's fumble at the B-42(does not advance). B51 roughs the passer during the play.

Does the 4th down fumble rule come into play?

Yes it would, but since your play stated A62 did not advance, I took that literally that he was down at the spot and I wasn't going to bring a 'what-if' to the play.
Had you placed the spot of the recovery beyond the spot of the fumble in the original play, that would have changed things.
Regardless, it is a good example and on any 4th down play with a fumble, it's good to talk it out prior to making the final decision.

In your changed play description, as I see itm the spot if the 4th down fumble recovery is behind the NZ, so the penalty is marked off from the previous spot. A's ball 1/10 B-25. Clock on the snap
I do not argee with Uncle Ernie's spot of the B-28 for the penalty mark off.

[JMN]

Theis,

Got it. As always, when I spend more time hunting things down in the rule book, my understanding is enhanced.

I kept missing the "...when it ends beyond the NZ..." in 9-1-2.o.

Thanks for your help to clarify!