Block in the back ?

[davidfv1]

Finally got a new play posted on the web site.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0kkni/footballvideo/

Questions for Discussion:
-Was there a block in the back?
-What is your criteria for a block in the back?
-Look at the Officials in the clip (head linesman,referee, and back judge) Any comments on their position in a 5 man crew?
-If there was a block in back, who's call?
-Any other comments or discussion items seen in the play?


Sorry it took so long, 4 weeks fly by fast. I did not have any good plays to post till my last Friday night's game. My vacation in Minnesota was great. Took in a football game there, officials did a good job. I hope everyone's season is going as well as mine.

David

[TXMike]

Originally posted by davidfv1
Questions for Discussion:
-Was there a block in the back?
-What is your criteria for a block in the back?
-Look at the Officials in the clip (head linesman,referee, and back judge) Any comments on their position in a 5 man crew?
-If there was a block in back, who's call?
-Any other comments or discussion items seen in the play?
David

1. It was not a block in the back. The force of the contact drove the defender sideways, not forward onto his face.

2. Criteria is that force be almost entirely from behind. Blocker almost has to have both hands on the rear of the blockee to get the call.

3. Why do you exempt the U from analysis? Looks like he is in pretty good positon initially but then gets knocked backwards and out of synch by a dropping LB. Next time we see him he is way out near the hash, apparently looking towards sideline instead of the mass of blockers between he and the R. He is the one who probably should have been able to catch an illegal block by 50, had 1 taken place. R apparently got caught a bit too close so he gets out of synch trying to get out of the way as QB rolls. His concern has to be that QB so I don't see how we can fault him for anything (although I don't see a foul anyay). Looks like the H took his 5 yard drop and is holding. Some places might want him moving up to the LOS since the QB is now threatening a run his way. Can't see the L but I suspect he went downfield as it appears he had a wideout on his side who ends up catching the pass. BJ seems to be a bit too shallow and might oughta be back at the end line
4. Angle is kind of bad but sure looks like Red's coach is out on the field as QB rolls right to him. Potentially messy situation there.



[Edited by TXMike on Oct 30th, 2003 at 07:23 AM]

[Rich]

No foul. Block was not between the shoulder blades.

I think the umpire could've avoided being screened off this play by starting closer to the linebackers. He didn't move very aggessively -- once reading pass he needed to get up to the line.

The referee should've been right behind the rolling quarterback. It looked as though he started right behind the tailback and simply backed up -- if he WAS on the QB's arm side at the snap I don't know how he ended up where he did.

The back judge didn't keep the receiver/defender behind him. Once he read the pass as being in the end zone, he should've moved to the end line.

The BIB, if there was one, could be handled by the R or the U. The U would have a better view of whether the contact was legal, but he was not up in the play as he needed to be.

Oh, and is the linesman chained to the chains? He should've been downfield with the receiver/defender on his side. Had the play gone that way the BJ would've had to come over and cover it.

Great play for teaching purposes, in many ways.

Rich

[ABoselli]

Agreed - no BIB. When the play first started to develop, I thought it was going to be the fat kid in on the block in question, but he couldn't catch up to the defender to do it.

Nice toss by the QB.

U is going to have to look at this one. R is kind of screened - partly because of his poor positioning.

[BktBallRef]

It's a good thing the pass wasn't to the right post.

[seanireland]

50 blocks 31 legally. No call. This block is from the front. Stop motion on the video shows this to be the initial contact.

Block in the back must be initial contact in the back between the shoulders. It can be a one finger tap on the number of the opponents back number and it will be a block in the back. But if the block is on the back of the shoulder pads at the shoulder it is not a block in the back. 2-5-2

The ump got pushed off this play. Shouldn't he have been at the LOS and read the blocking of the linemen? The ref keeps his eye on the QB and stays with him in this situation doesn't he? BJ is end line, not middle of EZ. Linesman is a few yards down the line. Seems ok, because this QB sure seems like he could have tucked and run.

The QB is a very good scrambler. Nice catch.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
No foul. Block was not between the shoulder blades.

I think the umpire could've avoided being screened off this play by starting closer to the linebackers. He didn't move very aggessively -- once reading pass he needed to get up to the line.

Agreed. Instead of stepping back when the linebacker moved his way he should have been following the blocking to the LOS.

The referee should've been right behind the rolling quarterback. It looked as though he started right behind the tailback and simply backed up -- if he WAS on the QB's arm side at the snap I don't know how he ended up where he did.

R got caught turning his back to the play. QB dropped way back at one point 20 yards. Typically, R should be about 12-14 yards. If he was initially, his movement was wrong somewhere because he should have moved back and away from the QB earlier and further than he did.

The back judge didn't keep the receiver/defender behind him. Once he read the pass as being in the end zone, he should've moved to the end line.

BJ just kind of stood near the end zone and never kept the eligible receivers in front of him. Notice the receiver on the sideline has also passed the BJ.

The BIB, if there was one, could be handled by the R or the U. The U would have a better view of whether the contact was legal, but he was not up in the play as he needed to be.

U initial move left him totally out of the play leaving R with responsibility for the QB and all the action around him; plus, R had to turn his back.

Oh, and is the linesman chained to the chains? He should've been downfield with the receiver/defender on his side. Had the play gone that way the BJ would've had to come over and cover it.

HL does not know whether to cover run or pass, so he does neither very well. There are only two receivers downfield. HL could have covered back toward the play giving some help to the R and U then moved toward to goal when the pass went if it was to his side, giving sideline coverage to assist the BJ. He should not be standing there looking like a spectator.

Great play for teaching purposes, in many ways.

Rich

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by seanireland
But if the block is on the back of the shoulder pads at the shoulder it is not a block in the back. 2-5-2

Say what?

[JMN]

Mr. Back Judge.

You are standing in the middle of the end zone. You are neither fish nor fowl. What in the world are you thinking?

Do the rest of you expect your BJ to be on the endline at a play that is snapped inside the B15? (Assuming the communication from the BJ is: "Wings, it's your goal line!"

My thought is that he just blew his positioning as he wasn't on the goal line and he wasn't on the end line.

Curious, does anyone use a mechanic that supports this positioning?

[MD Longhorn]

We use 10, but it's the same philosophy. BJ should be on the goalline unless the play starts inside the 10. Inside the 10, BJ gets the back of the EZ, and we get, "Wings, it's your goal line", or more often, the wings pointing and the goal line as Umpire sets the ball, "I've got the goal line."

On this play, no BIB.

And on this play, I hope someone sends it to their association. Amazing to see R, U, and BJ all out of position on the same play.

[JMN]

Originally posted by mbcrowder
more often, the wings pointing and the goal line as Umpire sets the ball, "I've got the goal line."

MB, you guys allow the wings to make the call on who has the goal line? Interesting.

We hold the BJ accountable for making the call and making sure his wings acknowledge their resposibility for covering the goal line. I thought it was the accepted mechanic. Others?

[MD Longhorn]

They aren't making a decision. They are reminding the umpire that they are aware of their responsibilities. Of course, if the wings aren't experienced, the umpire might have to do the reminding, "Wings - you have the line."

It's automatic here - inside the 10, wings have the line.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I'm not so sure that the BJ is in a bad position. Yeah, if he was there at the start of the play, that's a boo-boo. But why can't we just assume that he's where he is because of making an adjustment to the ball. He's in a position such that if the ball is tipped back toward the field of play, he can get to the goal line. And if it's tipped and moves toward the end line, he can adjust to it as well. Some have mentioned the two players in the right corner being behind him. I'm not so sure that's true. Anyway...who cares once the ball is thrown toward the left upright. Let the HL (who is in a bad position) worry about their interaction. In our local, the BJ gives up the goal line to the wings at the 10. I always make visual and verbal confirmation with my wings when it's their goal line.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: I'm not so sure that the BJ is in a bad position. Yeah, if he was there at the start of the play, that's a boo-boo. But why can't we just assume that he's where he is because of making an adjustment to the ball. He's in a position such that if the ball is tipped back toward the field of play, he can get to the goal line. And if it's tipped and moves toward the end line, he can adjust to it as well. Some have mentioned the two players in the right corner being behind him. I'm not so sure that's true. Anyway...who cares once the ball is thrown toward the left upright. Let the HL (who is in a bad position) worry about their interaction. In our local, the BJ gives up the goal line to the wings at the 10. I always make visual and verbal confirmation with my wings when it's their goal line.

What if the ball was thrown further toward the endline, or, the receiver did a tip drill before going out of bounds. Then what does the BJ do?

We don't know where the LJ is but the HL sure cannot be of any help if there is a play at the goal line. So, just maybe, the BJ figured I've got it all and if I position between them both I have a chance.

Of course, it is so easy to sit in my comfy office chair and type up all the positioning mistakes.

[Rich]

The HL is needed downfield in pass coverage until the QB commits to the run. A single BJ cannot cover both the middle of the field and the post. Doesn't mean that the HL needs to be behind the receivers -- that's what the BJ is for.

If the R hadn't got caught out of position, he would be in the perfect place to follow behind the QB on a run to the HL side. He could've followed and watched for late hits AND for a spot if the QB went out of bounds. Also, once the QB committed to the run, the HL would work his way back upfield and be able to cover very quickly.

In other words, there's good backup coverage (the R) if the QB runs. If he throws a post to the HL's corner and the HL commits to the run, nothing is covered.

I think most coverage breakdowns happen when the wings don't go downfield. Of course, once downfield, a wing needs to recognize when to come back upfield.

Rich