Muff Play

[surehands]

4th and 10 on K’s 30 yard line. K-1’s punt is muffed by R-2 at Team K’s 40 yard line and is picked up behind the neutral zone by K-3 at the 25 yard line. As R player rush him , K-3 quickly passes the ball forward to eligible K-4, but the pass is incomplete. What is the results of this play?

[surehands]

I gave K the ball at K’s 30 yard line?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by surehands

I gave K the ball at K’s 30 yard line?

Works according to Fed by 5-1-3(f). New series awarded too.

Same in NCAA via 5-1-1(e)2 and 5-1-4(b).

In NFL, I think the forward pass would be illegal, but possession would still be to team A. In Canadian football (assuming 3rd down), same as NFL, I think; not an offside pass because the player intended a legal forward pass.

[Legacy Zebra]

This is not the same in NCAA. Once the kick has crossed the neutral zone, it is dead upon recovery by the kicking team. Where that recovery happens to occur is irrelevant. Because the ball was touched beyond the neutral zone by B, it will be 1st and 10 for Team A at the spot of the recovery, the A-25. By rule there is no forward pass here because the ball was already dead.

[JRutledge]

I am pretty sure the rule for NCAA is exactly the same as it is for NF as it relates to K advancing the ball if the ball stays or comes back behind the LOS. I am pretty sure I have seen this happen and K advancing for a first down.

I will get home and look this up to verify the location of this rule.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Legacy Zebra

This is not the same in NCAA. Once the kick has crossed the neutral zone, it is dead upon recovery by the kicking team. Where that recovery happens to occur is irrelevant. Because the ball was touched beyond the neutral zone by B, it will be 1st and 10 for Team A at the spot of the recovery, the A-25. By rule there is no forward pass here because the ball was already dead.

You're right, it's 4-1-3(e). Might be true in NFL too.

There was a long time in Fed when K's recovery made the ball dead anywhere on the field, regardless of any touching by R.

[Legacy Zebra]

6-3-6-a. The ball is dead when a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone is caught or recovered by A.

NFL is like NFHS. If the ball comes back behind the line, A can still advance the ball. If the ball was touched by B, they get a new series. If the ball was not touched by B, it is the same series and they must reach the line to gain to maintain possession.

[Texas Aggie]

Legacy and Robert are right: under no circumstances can Team A advance a recovered KICK, unless it hasn't crossed the neutral zone. A new series of downs would attach, thus, Team A, first and 10 at the spot of recovery. (NCAA).

However, change the play just a little: what happens (Fed or NCAA) IF the ball goes out of Team A's end zone?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Legacy and Robert are right: under no circumstances can Team A advance a recovered KICK, unless it hasn't crossed the neutral zone. A new series of downs would attach, thus, Team A, first and 10 at the spot of recovery. (NCAA).

However, change the play just a little: what happens (Fed or NCAA) IF the ball goes out of Team A's end zone?

Out as in out of bounds?

If the muff by the receiving team player is of the kick in flight, then in both Fed and NCAA, responsibility for the ball's being in the end zone is on the kick, i.e. team A, so you'd get a safety.

If the kick touches the ground before being muffed, then there's a difference between Fed and NCAA, because in Fed that muff would usually have altered responsibility by the muffer's applying new force. I could, however, see cases in which the ball would've been bouncing towards A's goal line from the field of play, and the muff by R being ruled not to apply new force.

In NCAA the kick would have to come to rest before the receiving player could be ruled to apply new force to it.

So whether it's a safety or touchback could depend on factors not specified in the question.