Scrimmage kick formation exception

mabref1 · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 01:56pm

Our association has discussed the case listed below and cannot agree if this situation is legal. I believe this case violates the scrimmage kick formation exception but I cannot convince some of my fellow officials. Please help us resolve this case.

A contrasting situation is when Team A is in a scrimmage kick formation, but they have five linemen on the field numbered from 50-79. Team A player #80 lines up as a tackle inside Team A's end #79. Then Team A executes a legal shift during which #80 moves to the outside of#79. While #80 was initially ineligible due to position, after the shift he is now eligible by number and position due to the shift. Team A remains in a scrimmage kick formation, fakes the kick and throws a forward pass beyond the neutral zone to #80.

My interpretation is that this is legal and that Team A's shift permitted #80 to become an eligible receiver since #80 was NOT an example of the 7-2-5 numbering exception on scrimmage kicks.

AndrewMcCarthy · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 02:07pm

This is legal. Note the relevant sections 7-2-5 and 7-5-6 and their use of the phrase "at the snap".

Patton · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 02:12pm

The question I would have is if #80 originaly lined up as a tackle, was he set, and if so, is he entitled to shift? I don't believe so. Any comments?

AndrewMcCarthy · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Patton
The question I would have is if #80 originaly lined up as a tackle, was he set, and if so, is he entitled to shift? I don't believe so. Any comments?

Good question! I assumed he wasn't set with a hand on the ground since the original post said the shift was legal.

rdfox · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 02:33pm

I don't have my rulebook with me, but I seem to recall that the numbering exception is based on the initial position only. Any subsequent shift cannot make a person switch from ineligible to eligible, despite the correctly numbered jersey.

It could easily occur during the "swinging gate" play that coaches often use on a try.

sm_bbcoach · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 03:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rdfox
I don't have my rulebook with me, but I seem to recall that the numbering exception is based on the initial position only. Any subsequent shift cannot make a person switch from ineligible to eligible, despite the correctly numbered jersey.

It could easily occur during the "swinging gate" play that coaches often use on a try.

That is very correct. It is about where they set up. The article referenced above 7-2-5a says at the snap........
But the exception when...... A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line and he remains an ineligable forward pass reciever...

Case book pg. 50 7-2-5 sitD has a point that directly claims this. It is about #33.

AndrewMcCarthy · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 04:00pm

I don't believe #80 is ever lined up per the exception on this play. The original formation was legal without the exception.

Touchdown!!!!

Oh wait... did he catch it?!?!

Smiley · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 04:07pm

Because there were 5 players numbered 50-79, no players were in the game under the numbering exception. Therefore, #80 can legally shift and become eligible.

Bob M. · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 04:13pm

REPLY: If I read the initial post correctly, there were five players numbered 50-79 on the line. That means that there is no numbering exception in effect. Therefore the restriction on an eligible number initially lined up in an ineligible position is not significant. As long as #80 did not have his hand on or near the ground, he may legally shift and may become eligible.

andy1033 · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 08:56pm

If they are in kick formation, then the numbering systemis in effect and the initial position determines eligibility. Since he lined up at the tackle position he is not eligible for even if he shifts and becomes an end or back.

Warrenkicker · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 22, 2003, 09:35pm

7-2-5 Player numbering requirements include:

a. At the snap at least seven A players, five of whom must be numbered 50 to 79, shall be on their line of scrimmage. B players may be anywhere on or behind their line.

EXCEPTION: When A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99 may take the position of a lineman numbered 50 to 79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).

So if 80 doesn't take the place of 50 through 79 then he didn't use the exception. He may shift to an eligible position and become an eligible receiver.

LJnkansas · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 12:19am

It would be a penalty for illegal formation in football............in college.........a receiver who is covered up......cannot become eligible........by a shift............in a scrimmage kick formation.................this is my recollection of the rule.........

Bob M. · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 08:35am

Quote:

Originally posted by LJnkansas
It would be a penalty for illegal formation in football............in college.........a receiver who is covered up......cannot become eligible........by a shift............in a scrimmage kick formation.................this is my recollection of the rule.........

REPLY: You're right--illegal formation at the snap, and ineligible downfield when the pass is thrown, and illegal touch if #80 touches the pass downfield. That's the rule...

However, in this play, there were 5 players numbered 50-79, so the numbering exception and its restrictions are not in effect. #80's actions are legal.

LJnkansas · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 08:39am

thanks Bob..............that does make sense........

sm_bbcoach · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 23, 2003, 11:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
7-2-5 Player numbering requirements include:

a. At the snap at least seven A players, five of whom must be numbered 50 to 79, shall be on their line of scrimmage. B players may be anywhere on or behind their line.

EXCEPTION: When A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99 may take the position of a lineman numbered 50 to 79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).

So if 80 doesn't take the place of 50 through 79 then he didn't use the exception. He may shift to an eligible position and become an eligible receiver.

Didn't 80 take the place of an int. lineman???? He did line up as a tackle, in his place. Or am I reading too muchj into the ecxeption. In my mind, 80 has taken the position of a lineman #50-79, meaning the exception IS in effect. Please correct me if I am wrong.