The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 21, 2019, 06:22am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 40
Safety or Not?

Offense has the ball on their 10 yard-line. Snap to QB and runs in his end zone to attempt a pass. Offense holds at the 5 yard-line. QB gets hit, fumbles in the end zone and the ball rolls out of bounds at the 3 yard-line. What you got?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 21, 2019, 06:27am
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,648
NFHS- foul occurs behind the basic spot, which is the previous spot. Penalize half the distance from the 5 yard line, which is the spot of the foul, to the 2 1/2 yl.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 21, 2019, 06:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
NFHS- foul occurs behind the basic spot, which is the previous spot. Penalize half the distance from the 5 yard line, which is the spot of the foul, to the 2 1/2 yl.
End of the run was in the end-zone when he fumbled and behind the spot of the foul.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 21, 2019, 07:11am
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,648
10-3-.1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:

c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.

NOTE: The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play.

10-3-2. . . The basic spot is the previous spot:
b. For a foul which occurs during a loose ball play, as defined in 10-3-1

10-6 Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot during a loose ball play or running play. This particular foul is enforced from the spot of the foul.

Last edited by HLin NC; Mon Oct 21, 2019 at 07:24am.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 21, 2019, 07:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
10-3-.1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:

c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.

NOTE: The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play.

10-3-2. . . The basic spot is the previous spot:
b. For a foul which occurs during a loose ball play, as defined in 10-3-1

10-6 Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot during a loose ball play or running play. This particular foul is enforced from the spot of the foul.
Was ruled a safety last Friday night? Long discussion from the crew of what to do on the play?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 21, 2019, 08:43am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorrydog View Post
Was ruled a safety last Friday night? Long discussion from the crew of what to do on the play?


This is why there's no need to bag a fumble behind the line of scrimmage. Ever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 21, 2019, 02:21pm
Chain of Fools
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,648
Quote:
Was ruled a safety last Friday night? Long discussion from the crew of what to do on the play?
I provided you the applicable rules. Do with it what you will.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 11:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
This is why there's no need to bag a fumble behind the line of scrimmage. Ever.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
But it's a fumble! I'm supposed to bag all fumbles!

No, you bag possible enforcement spots. A fumble is often a possible enforcement spot. But so is a backward pass and the end of a scrimmage kick. But you don't bag pitches in the backfield? (Many don't bag backward passes beyond the NZ either) Why would you bag fumbles in the backfield.

Understanding loose ball play/running play, their associated basic spot, and the All-but-One will get you 90% of penalty enforcement correct.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 24, 2019, 03:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
I provided you the applicable rules. Do with it what you will.
Not sure what the jest is in your "Do with it what you will" comment? I simply asked a question from watching a football game Friday night. Not a expert on rules since I'm not an official.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 12:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,193
Quote:
This is why there's no need to bag a fumble behind the line of scrimmage. Ever.
I don't know about Fed but in NCAA there are several reasons why you want to bag a fumble behind the line. 1) 4th down fumble rule application; 2) forward fumble out of bounds; 3) to determine, in certain situations, if the ball was fumbled in the end zone or field of play for batting purposes (no forward batting in FOP; no batting of any kind in EZ) -- this will help the other officials and finally 4) if for no other reason it tells everyone you have a fumble.

As to the play in question, under NCAA rules the play would result in a safety as the ball is brought back to the spot of the fumble. (7-2-4-b-2). This is behind Team A's goal line and thus a safety. (8-5-1-a). Or, they could accept the penalty enforcement and have Team A repeat the down from half the distance back. Under a weird set of circumstances (e.g. bad punter and or weak punt coverage/protection; or maybe its like 3rd down and 40) they may choose to do that.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 07:43am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post
I don't know about Fed but in NCAA there are several reasons why you want to bag a fumble behind the line. 1) 4th down fumble rule application; 2) forward fumble out of bounds; 3) to determine, in certain situations, if the ball was fumbled in the end zone or field of play for batting purposes (no forward batting in FOP; no batting of any kind in EZ) -- this will help the other officials and finally 4) if for no other reason it tells everyone you have a fumble.



As to the play in question, under NCAA rules the play would result in a safety as the ball is brought back to the spot of the fumble. (7-2-4-b-2). This is behind Team A's goal line and thus a safety. (8-5-1-a). Or, they could accept the penalty enforcement and have Team A repeat the down from half the distance back. Under a weird set of circumstances (e.g. bad punter and or weak punt coverage/protection; or maybe its like 3rd down and 40) they may choose to do that.


49 states play NFHS rules, so I'm always defaulting there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 1,139
Texas plays NCAA rules for high school, so that's why TexasAggie made his post about NCAA rules.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 08:25am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Texas plays NCAA rules for high school, so that's why TexasAggie made his post about NCAA rules.

I said 49 so it stands to reason I know that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 25, 2019, 10:24am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie View Post
I don't know about Fed but in NCAA there are several reasons why you want to bag a fumble behind the line. 1) 4th down fumble rule application; 2) forward fumble out of bounds; 3) to determine, in certain situations, if the ball was fumbled in the end zone or field of play for batting purposes (no forward batting in FOP; no batting of any kind in EZ) -- this will help the other officials and finally 4) if for no other reason it tells everyone you have a fumble.

As to the play in question, under NCAA rules the play would result in a safety as the ball is brought back to the spot of the fumble. (7-2-4-b-2). This is behind Team A's goal line and thus a safety. (8-5-1-a). Or, they could accept the penalty enforcement and have Team A repeat the down from half the distance back. Under a weird set of circumstances (e.g. bad punter and or weak punt coverage/protection; or maybe its like 3rd down and 40) they may choose to do that.
Weird set of circumstances and stupid captain on either or both teams. If it was to B's advantage not to score a safety, but team A repeats the down, why wouldn't team A concede a safety when they repeat the down?
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 28, 2019, 12:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,193
Like I said, if the hold occurred on 3rd and, say, 35 (and I've had a few of those this year) and Team A's punter was REALLY bad, and the place kicker was really good, and perhaps it was late in the game and 2 points didn't mean much, you MIGHT go ahead and wipe out the safety. Again, really weird set of circumstances and the coach risks karma coming back and Team A getting a first down (or, even worse, Team B committing a foul on the next play that results in a first down -- something I've also seen several times this year). After a safety, a free kick from the 20 from a good kicker might put the team back at their own 20 whereas a bad punt on 4th down might put them at the other team's 40 or better. If I KNEW I was going to get that, down 7, last 2 minutes or so in the game, I'd decline the penalty. 2 points means nothing in that situation.

This would be pretty limited (say, once in 5 years), but I think the important thing in any penalty enforcement (and I think Fed is the same) is to remember that any penalty may be declined and to go through and think what happens in any case if the penalty is declined. The first question I ask as an R is "what happened on the play" if I don't know.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Safety LRZ Basketball 31 Thu Jan 24, 2019 02:45am
Safety or Not? ODJ Football 19 Thu Oct 04, 2012 02:07pm
safety scratchawl Football 0 Sat Sep 08, 2012 01:19pm
safety in OT whitehat Football 17 Sat Oct 01, 2011 09:19am
Safety or No Safety that is the question BrasoFuerte Football 14 Sun Sep 02, 2007 05:15pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:01am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1