Safety or Not?

[ODJ]

This situation was posed to my group this week:

B33 intercepts A's pass in his end zone and is tackled there. After COP, but before B33 is downed, B45 holds A22 in B's EZ.

Popular response: Touchback. Assess the holding penalty from B's 20. 1/10 for B at B's 10.

Correct answer: Safety.

Can't find a rule reference to support a safety. Assistance, please.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ODJ

This situation was posed to my group this week:

B33 intercepts A's pass in his end zone and is tackled there. After COP, but before B33 is downed, B45 holds A22 in B's EZ.

Popular response: Touchback. Assess the holding penalty from B's 20. 1/10 for B at B's 10.

Correct answer: Safety.

Can't find a rule reference to support a safety. Assistance, please.

Isn't the factor that decides the ruling is to ask how the ball entered the EZ? The ball entered the EZ because of A. So if B fouls, is it fair that the play results in a safety?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Isn't the factor that decides the ruling is to ask how the ball entered the EZ? The ball entered the EZ because of A. So if B fouls, is it fair that the play results in a safety?

It's not about fair, it's about what the rule says, and I believe I've been railing against this ruling for about 10 years now. Safety is correct, even though it's a ridiculous result.

[Welpe]

Speaking only for NCAA (don't work Fed any more), this is a safety because while the basic spot is the B-20, the spot of the foul is behind the basic spot. Using 3 and 1 enforcement, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul, which is in the end zone. The penalty enforcement results in a safety.

I believe Fed is the same way but what you need to look for is where Fed defines the basic spot and then apply All but one enforcement.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I believe Fed is the same way but what you need to look for is where Fed defines the basic spot and then apply All but one enforcement.

That's it:

10-4-5d (basic spot)

"The basic spot is the succeeding spot:
d. When the final result is a touchback."


10-6 (all but one)

"Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during
a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul by the offense
which occurs behind the basic spot during a loose ball play or running play. This
particular foul is enforced from the spot of the foul."


And 8-5-2c (safety)

"A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone..."

[Adam]

Moral of the story, don't hold in your own end zone.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by ODJ

This situation was posed to my group this week:

B33 intercepts A's pass in his end zone and is tackled there. After COP, but before B33 is downed, B45 holds A22 in B's EZ.

Popular response: Touchback. Assess the holding penalty from B's 20. 1/10 for B at B's 10.

Correct answer: Safety.

Can't find a rule reference to support a safety. Assistance, please.

*8.5.2 SITUATION F: B1 intercepts on his own 4-yard line and his momentum takes him into B’s end zone. (a) B1 advances out of the end zone and runs to his own 35-yard line; or (b) B1 runs out of the end zone then circles back into it and in both cases is downed there; or (c) B1 is hit and fumbles and A1 falls on the loose ball in the end zone; or (d) B2 holds A1 in the end zone as B1 is downed there.

RULING: Legal advance in (a). In (b), it is a safety. Once B1 advances out
of the end zone as in (a) or (b), the exception is canceled and action thereafter dictates the result of the play. Touchdown for A in (c). In (d), the foul by B2 occurred in the end zone behind the basic spot resulting in a safety. (7-5-4; 8-2-1; 8-5-2a Exception; 10-4-3; 10-6)

[Rich]

It's a great thread, actually. And it's a great example of why every penalty can be broken down to some key questions:

Who committed the foul? Team in possession.
What kind of play? Running play.
What's the basic spot? B-20.
Is the foul behind the basic spot? Yes.

So it's all-but-one (or 3-and-1) enforcement. Spot of the foul is in the end zone. Safety.

I have no problem with the ruling, personally. Don't hold in the end zone.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's a great thread, actually. And it's a great example of why every penalty can be broken down to some key questions:

Who committed the foul? Team in possession.
What kind of play? Running play.
What's the basic spot? B-20.
Is the foul behind the basic spot? Yes.

So it's all-but-one (or 3-and-1) enforcement. Spot of the foul is in the end zone. Safety.

I have no problem with the ruling, personally. Don't hold in the end zone.

Here's why I don't like the rule.

Generally, the idea behind awarding a safety to a team who is fouled in the endzone is that the fouler possibly prevented the fouled team from getting a safety. When the ball is in the EZ and will be a touchback, that possibility does not exist. Fouls like this should be enforced from the 20.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Here's why I don't like the rule.

Generally, the idea behind awarding a safety to a team who is fouled in the endzone is that the fouler possibly prevented the fouled team from getting a safety. When the ball is in the EZ and will be a touchback, that possibility does not exist. Fouls like this should be enforced from the 20.

I see your point, however, what about when the runner starts to take off?

There is too much grey area of when the play will result in a TB. (remember, we're talking kids here)

Like many have said... Don't foul in the EZ and it's not an issue.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Here's why I don't like the rule.

Generally, the idea behind awarding a safety to a team who is fouled in the endzone is that the fouler possibly prevented the fouled team from getting a safety. When the ball is in the EZ and will be a touchback, that possibility does not exist. Fouls like this should be enforced from the 20.

This makes so much more sense.

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Here's why I don't like the rule.

Generally, the idea behind awarding a safety to a team who is fouled in the endzone is that the fouler possibly prevented the fouled team from getting a safety. When the ball is in the EZ and will be a touchback, that possibility does not exist. Fouls like this should be enforced from the 20.

While I'll enforce this as a Safety, I agree that the rule should be changed, one way or another. The conflicting rule in question is 8-5-3d, which states "It is a touchback when: ... A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

I don't care how the rule is patched, if they choose to make an exception to 8-5-3d which states that a foul accepted by A would be a safety, or if they choose to award B the ball and enforce the foul from the 20 yard line. As long as it removes any conflicts, it's an improvement.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Here's why I don't like the rule.

Generally, the idea behind awarding a safety to a team who is fouled in the endzone is that the fouler possibly prevented the fouled team from getting a safety. When the ball is in the EZ and will be a touchback, that possibility does not exist. Fouls like this should be enforced from the 20.

But the problem is that we just don't know what might have happened without the foul. Maybe the offended A player hits the ball carrier causing a fumble which A recovers for a TD.

As others have said, don't foul in your own EZ and we don't have this problem.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

I see your point, however, what about when the runner starts to take off?

There is too much grey area of when the play will result in a TB. (remember, we're talking kids here)

Like many have said... Don't foul in the EZ and it's not an issue.

If the rule were changed such that a foul in the endzone committed while the ball is in the endzone when a TB would be in effect instead of a safety, the foul is marked from the subsequent spot or the 20, whichever is closest to the end zone, that would still cover your "runner takes off" situation. My wording is not perfect here (then again, what rule is? ), but you know what I mean.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CT1

But the problem is that we just don't know what might have happened without the foul. Maybe the offended A player hits the ball carrier causing a fumble which A recovers for a TD.

Not seeing the problem on that example either. A would decline the penalty.