PSK spot and Inadvertent Whislte

[jack015]

Rule 6-2-7:
"When any scrimmage kick is out of bounds between the goal lines or becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possesson, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R...."

The scrimmage kick becomes dead when the IW occurs, so the ball is awarded to R, and PSK applies. It's no different than if the kick goes out of bounds. [/B][/QUOTE]

First of all, this thread is facinating and is generating some great discussion. Cmathews and others have done a great job supporting their positon with rule references.

Here is the problem I am having. If this is enforced as a PSK foul, at what spot on the field are we going to award the ball to R before penalty administration if the IW takes place while the ball is in flight? When the ball becomes dead inbounds with no player in posession (rolls to a stop - no IW) or goes out of bounds, we have a spot where the kick ended that is easily identified. When the kick in flight becomes dead due to an IW and you asked 10 people (including the officials) which yard line to ball was over when the IW took place, you would get 10 different answers.

I agree that the NF should, and probably will, make a ruling on a play such as this. My opinion is that the down will be replayed from the previuos spot or R will be penalized from the previous spot when the NF finally make a ruling on this play.

[CKRef]

We ran the PSK experimental rule in KY last year. This was a case play in our pre-season handout for 2002. Our play said PSK does not apply. If accepted, the penalty is enforced as a loose ball play (from the previous spot).

This is the most common IW I've seen and I cover it in every pre-game. Rich Brooks gave an SEC BJ an ear full at Alabama last month. Since the ball was muffed, we've now deprived the kicking team of the chance to recover the loose ball.

[KWH]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: One more example of the naivety of the PSK myth which claims that "possession changes when the kick crosses the expanded neutral zone." It doesn't!

You really do have a problem with "Team Possession" changing once the kicked ball crosses the ENZ don't you Bob?
Perhaps then you could explain to us all what the rules committee meant when the wrote Football Fundamentals I.3 (Page 66) which states: A loose ball is in possession of the team whose player was last in possession unless post scrimmage kick applies.
That seems pretty clear to me Bob, but I would like your opinion!

[Theisey]

I can't wait to read what Bob has to say about this!
I'll say this, I don't think they knew what they were doing when that fundamental was changed. It makes no sense unless they want to admit this is an(other) exception.

[KWH]

Of course it is an exception, Theisey, the entire PSK ruling is an exception to the Team Possession Rule 2-32-2.

1) R has "technically" recieved the football with "Clean Hands" when the kicked ball crosses the expanded neutral zone. But, as we all know they are allowed to keep the football even though they foul without "physically" possessing the football. We call this PSK!
2) Rule 2-32-2 Says....A live ball is always in "Team possession"
3) Therefore, one would summise that team possession changes from K to R when the kicked ball crosses the expanded neutral zone free of an R foul.
4) Additionally NFHS SITUATION 13 (Revised) has finally been corrected to eliminate an (assumed) automatic double foul when K fouls at any time and R comits any PSK foul, since R "technically" recieved the ball with "Clean Hands". If then, R "technically" recieved the ball with "Clean Hands" then they must also be "technically" in "Team Possession!" Otherwise we wouldn't allow them to keep the ball!
5) Further, I assume the NFHS will either modify the wording in 2-32-2 or add a new rule (2-32-3?) that will specifically address this issue. Most likely it will be worded similar to Football Fundamentals I. 3.

[Theisey]

Lets say for for discussion purposes that NF makes a few more alterations to PSK rules next season.

Is it your thinking that if an IW were to occur while a ball is loose during a scrimmage kick in which a PSK type foul would have been administered had the play ended normally, that the IW options will be given to team-R?

Is this what NF really wants to happen?

NCAA does not handle it that way. The down is automatically replayed.

[cmathews]

Let's not forget here that the choice to replay the down still belongs to K..We aren't really taking anything away from them...so I don't see a big reason to change it...Think of it this way, if they had just gotten off a boomer of a punt that ended up improving their field position by 60 yrds or more, should they be forced to replay the down, with the likely hood of their improving their position being very slim???

[Theisey]

Originally posted by cmathews
Let's not forget here that the choice to replay the down still belongs to K..We aren't really taking anything away from them...so I don't see a big reason to change it...Think of it this way, if they had just gotten off a boomer of a punt that ended up improving their field position by 60 yrds or more, should they be forced to replay the down, with the likely hood of their improving their position being very slim???

### What choice.. 4-2-3-a says the down is replayed. K does not get a choice. PSK changes did not alter this rule.

[PiggSkin]

### What choice.. 4-2-3-a says the down is replayed. K does not get a choice. PSK changes did not alter this rule.

That's the way I read it at first, but the first part of 4-2-3 says "During a down, or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, ..."

That seems to imply that if the penalty is accepted, do enforce the penalty as you normally would, and replay only if enforcement of the penalty requires it... Therein lies the problem... The normal penalty enforcement spot doesn't exist...

[PiggSkin]

Okay, I've finally rationalized this in my head... Tell me why I'm wrong...

The PSK spot is where the kick ends...
The kick ends when (and where) the ball becomes dead...
The ball becomes dead when the IW is sounded...
Therefore, the PSK spot is wherever the ball was when the whistle blew...

So the choices are:
1) K declines the penalty, and the down is replayed...
2) K accepts the penalty, and R puts the ball in play 5 yards behind the IW spot...

Whatcha think..?

[MD Longhorn]

This is easy in NCAA - replay the down.

Not knowing all the NF rules, I can't answer for sure, but it seems to me this is an easier conundrum if you separate the items.

First - forget the penalty. Where would you spot it with your IW if there was no penalty.

Second - Considering that spot the dead ball spot (as if there was no IW), what are the options regarding the penalty.

Third, with the spotting of the ball and the penalty settled - now what are the options (and by whom - K, I think, but not sure in NF) regarding the IW.

[PiggSkin]

Originally posted by mbcrowder
This is easy in NCAA - replay the down.

Not knowing all the NF rules, I can't answer for sure, but it seems to me this is an easier conundrum if you separate the items.

First - forget the penalty. Where would you spot it with your IW if there was no penalty.

Second - Considering that spot the dead ball spot (as if there was no IW), what are the options regarding the penalty.

Third, with the spotting of the ball and the penalty settled - now what are the options (and by whom - K, I think, but not sure in NF) regarding the IW.

So in NCAA, does the penalty get enforced..? (Potentially giving K a first down..?)

[KWH]

First of all this is the play as I understand it:
4th and 4 for K on the K-25.
K1 punts and while the ball is in flight R1 gives an invalid fair catch signal on the R25. Upon seeing the Invalid Fair catch signal the Back Judge throws his flag and blows his whistle.
1) Assuming the ball crossed the ENZ prior to the Invalid signal and prior to the IW (which is highly likely), the PSK window is open.
2) The kick ended when the IW was blown!
3) The spot where the kick ended is (most likely) in advance of where the signal was given. Note: Logically speaking the ball was most likely blown dead in advance of R1, since R1 was (most likely) looking forward at the ball when he signalled.
4) Therefore the penalty (if accepted by K) is enforced from the spot of the foul (the R25) since the spot of the foul is (most likely) behind the end of the kick.
If the spot the ball was blown dead by the IW is determined to be behind the spot where the signal is given, enforce the foul from the end of the kick.
If the penalty is declined by K the down will be replayed.
Under no circumstances is K awarded a first down on this play.

Remember if you have the opportunity to make a play PSK, then by all means, MAKE IT PSK!

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by KWH

You really do have a problem with "Team Possession" changing once the kicked ball crosses the ENZ don't you Bob?
Perhaps then you could explain to us all what the rules committee meant when the wrote Football Fundamentals I.3 (Page 66) which states: A loose ball is in possession of the team whose player was last in possession unless post scrimmage kick applies.
That seems pretty clear to me Bob, but I would like your opinion!

REPLY: That does seem pretty clear, but then again so does the NOTE included in Table 6-4 right at the top of page 45 which clearly states that this kick is still in possession of Team K. My guess is that when all of these PSK inconsistencies shake out next year, that NOTE will still be there and the change to Fundamental I.3 will be rescinded. Only time will tell.

[KWH]

REPLY: That does seem pretty clear, but then again so does the NOTE included in Table 6-4 right at the top of page 45 which clearly states that this kick is still in possession of Team K. My guess is that when all of these PSK inconsistencies shake out next year, that NOTE will still be there and the change to Fundamental I.3 will be rescinded. Only time will tell. [/B][/QUOTE]

There are several inconsistancies still remaining in the NFHS Rule Book. My guess is that when all of these PSK inconsistencies shake out:
1) Table 6-4 "NOTE:" will be rewritten as follows: K is in Team possession during a kick unless post scrimmage kick applies. A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead by rule. R gains possession of the ball when a player of R catches or recovers the live ball unless post scrimmage kick applies.
The Rules committee does need to rewrite this "Note:" to make it consistant with the Change to Fundamental I.3., AND consistant with the "Clean Hands" statement regarding PSK located at the top of page 73 in your 2003 rule book.
2) I believe unless post scrimmage kick applies will be added to the end of Rule 10-2-1b.
3) I believe unless post scrimmage kick applies will be inserted into the verbage of Rule 10-2-2.
4) I believe unless post scrimmage kick applies will be inserted into the verbage of Rule 2-32-2.

But, as you say Bob, only time will tell...