Illegal Participation Spot of Enforcement

[paulsonj72]

Just to clarify illegal participation is 15 yards from the spot of the foul(basic spot) unless it occurs during a loose ball play in which case it is enforced at the previous spot. We had a situation in the Minnesota 9 man championship game today where we had an a receiver step out of bounds and come back in during a forward pass(loose ball) and as such the penalty was 15 yards from the previous spot. And FWIW the officials on the field missed the call during the play. For Semi Finals and Finals in Minnesota only the NCAA replay rule is used and that is how the foul was caught.

[Robert Goodman]

How's the spot of this type of foul during a running play determined? Is it where the player re-entered the field, or is it where he first subsequently "participated" in play? Or even the most advantageous spot at which he participated?

[HLin NC]

9-6-1

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

9-6-1

But that just says for a running play, "basic spot". Does that mean it supersedes the all-but-one principle in case the foul was by the offense behind the basic spot?

Suppose a player of A returns to the field illegally at the 50 yard line during a down with no change of possession, then blocks an opponent at the B40, blocks another at the B30, all during the same run which ends at the B20. Is the penalty enforced automatically from the B20, or is it from one of those other spots?

[HLin NC]

If you can research rule 9, then you can also research rule 2.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

If you can research rule 9, then you can also research rule 2.

I don't see how the definition of basic spot resolves my question.

[bwburke94]

And I don't see how listing a rule number without actually answering the question helps the discussion.

[HLin NC]

Give a man a fish.....

[bob jenkins]

okay -- I am not a football official. What is the spot from where the illegal particiaption foul is enforced?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

And I don't see how listing a rule number without actually answering the question helps the discussion.

It can help, but doesn't always. It doesn't help when the people discussing the problem have already read the referenced portions of the rules.

The penalty provision of 9-6, illegal participation, says, "basic spot" for this case. That would seem to mean the enforcement spot is the basic spot.

However, the all-but-one principle says, "from the basic spot with the exception of a foul by the offense which occurs behind the basic spot during a loose ball play or running play." It excepts cases listed under "Basic Spots" and special enforcement rules (which don't apply to this case). However however, the "Basic Spots" provisions include one that says, "The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play...", which is not an exception at all but just repeats the definition given in Rule 2 -- which makes one wonder why it needs to be defined in two places.

So when 9-6 says "basic spot", does that mean to supersede the all-but-one principle? If the penalty provisions of 9-6 were not listed, enforcement would be clear, because the basic spot is known and the all-but-one principle would apply. But since there is a spot listed, is this to be considered an exception, even though it is not one of the exceptions listed?

Then, if all-but-one does apply to the case I detailed, what's considered the spot of the foul? The actions that are illegal in this case include "Return to the field", which spot may fairly easily be found, but also "Influence the play; or Otherwise participate." Blocking twice during the run could be considered separate acts that influence the play or are forms of participation, so are all those spots available for enforcement if they're behind the basic spot? Or is the whole to-do from returning to the field to making the last block considered a single instance of "participation" and penalized from...somewhere? I could argue for the influence on the play and "participating" by blocking as not being separate illegal acts, because the wording of 9-6-2 suggests that they apply only when the player has not returned to the field, to give the provision wider application.

[paulsonj72]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

okay -- I am not a football official. What is the spot from where the illegal particiaption foul is enforced?

In my case it was from the previous spot as it happened during a loose ball play(forward pass)

[CT1]

You guys are making this waaay more complicated than it needs to be. If you deem his actions to be illegal, the spot of the foul is where he reenters the field. The basic spot is either end of run (running play) or previous spot (loose ball play).

[paulsonj72]

I have another question regarding Illegal Participation? If a player(like a pass receiver) is forced out of bounds(pushed) under the NFHS rules is he allowed to reenter the play. I don't have my old rule books anymore so I can't look this up or I would

[CT1]

Originally Posted by paulsonj72

I have another question regarding Illegal Participation? If a player(like a pass receiver) is forced out of bounds(pushed) under the NFHS rules is he allowed to reenter the play. I don't have my old rule books anymore so I can't look this up or I would

Yes, as long as he does so at his first opportunity.

[paulsonj72]

Originally Posted by CT1

Yes, as long as he does so at his first opportunity.

Thank you Wasn't sure of that