11th off then back on

[mikesears]

1/10 @ A-20. B11 thinks he is the 12th man on the field and crosses the sideline to go off the field.

As TEAM A, comes to the line, he realizes he WAS the 11th player and wants to return to the field. Is he allowed to return (provided he gets on before the snap)?

[PSU213]

3-7-4: "During the same dead ball interval...no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute." The question is, did that individual ever stop being a player? I would say no: "A player continues to be a player until a substitute enters the field and indicates to the player he is replaced, or when the substitute otherwise becomes a player (2-30-1)." Based on this I would say he never quit being a player and therefore did not become a substitute, so what he did was legal. Any comments?

[mikesears]

Originally posted by PSU213
3-7-4: "During the same dead ball interval...no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute." The question is, did that individual ever stop being a player? I would say no: "A player continues to be a player until a substitute enters the field and indicates to the player he is replaced, or when the substitute otherwise becomes a player (2-30-1)." Based on this I would say he never quit being a player and therefore did not become a substitute, so what he did was legal. Any comments?

This is my thinking, but I'm looking for comments too.

[Mike Simonds]

B11 remained a player during the dead-ball period. It would have been a penalty if B11 was replaced by another player and then he re-entered the field as a substitute during the same dead-ball period.

Read rule 2-30-1 and rule 3-7-4 and case play 3.7.2.

[Huskerblue]

I agree with the previous responses. Now, could this be considered encroachment since he was on his side of the ball then went to the opponents and then back to his own? That's of course if the ball was ready for play and the center has touched the ball.

[Theisey]

This substitution example is one I see at least two or three times a year at the NF level. Its one of those NCAA/NF differences so it had messed me up once.

NCAA: once you leave, you are out until you can be legally be substituted back in.

NF: you can return unless another sub has already entered for you.


regarding encroachment... I would say yes that could be a valid foul to call on this player since he is not a sub at this point. Tough call, but a correct one.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
B11 remained a player during the dead-ball period. It would have been a penalty if B11 was replaced by another player and then he re-entered the field as a substitute during the same dead-ball period.

Read rule 2-30-1 and rule 3-7-4 and case play 3.7.2.

I would rule B11 as a replaced player creating a player vacancy once B11 crossed the sideline. A replaced player cannot become a substitute durng the same dead ball period.

That said, technically, a substitution infraction has occurred according to NFHS Rules. Strict enforcement of this rule has to be classified as overly officious. Use preventative officiating to count players and monitor player movement.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

I would rule B11 as a replaced player creating a player vacancy once B11 crossed the sideline. A replaced player cannot become a substitute durng the same dead ball period.

That said, technically, a substitution infraction has occurred according to NFHS Rules. Strict enforcement of this rule has to be classified as overly officious. Use preventative officiating to count players and monitor player movement.

A replaced player is "one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player (2-30-12)." Based on this definition, I would say the the player from the original question never became a replaced player since he was never notified by a sub that he is to leave (i.e. leaving the field does not in and of itself turn a "player" into a "replaced player"). Therefore, I still believe this is not a foul.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Huskerblue
I agree with the previous responses. Now, could this be considered encroachment since he was on his side of the ball then went to the opponents and then back to his own? That's of course if the ball was ready for play and the center has touched the ball.

Since I consider him to have never quit being a player, then, yes, after the RFP and after the snapper puts his hand(s) on the ball, he has encroached if he is on the wrong side of or in the NZ(7-1-6). As already mentioned, it is a tough call, but I suppose that is the price he pays for leaving the field when he shouldn't have.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
I would rule B11 as a replaced player creating a player vacancy once B11 crossed the sideline. A replaced player cannot become a substitute durng the same dead ball period.

I have to disagree with you, Ed. Where does it say a player becomes a replaced player when he creates a vacancy? A replaced player is one who has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field. A player is also replaced when the entering substitute becomes a player. I don't think the rules back you up.

[Warrenkicker]

I think that this whole discussion comes down to the word "withdraw". If the NF were to give us the definition of that word or use different wording then we would all be sure about this one. Obviously there are two sides to this and there should never be a situation in trying to apply simple rules such as substitution that 50% are on each side of the question. I agree that this 11 player never stopped being a player as he was not substituted for. However I would say that he "withdrew" from the field. The thing is he didn't return as a substitute because he can't replace himself. 3-7-4

I was always under the impression from my playing days that a player couldn't leave the field between plays and come back on. That was just how my coach applied the rules.

We all know that there are 11 players for each team at all times. We also know that only 11 players are allowed in the huddle. How often do you have 20 players in a huddle at the sideline after a try or during a timeout? Those are fouls too. I wouldn't call them but they are fouls.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
We all know that there are 11 players for each team at all times. We also know that only 11 players are allowed in the huddle. How often do you have 20 players in a huddle at the sideline after a try or during a timeout? Those are fouls too. I wouldn't call them but they are fouls.

Actually there is no rule that forbids 11 in the huddle (but that is another story all together). As for 20 players during a conference, coaches around here are pretty good about this one and if they have too many, we let them know and they remove players so they only have 11.

[MD Longhorn]

NCAA 3-5-2c: A player who is replaced must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle or his position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately. Team A may not break it's huddle with 12 or more players.

This would (in NCAA) mean to me that you cannot have more than 11 in the huddle except for the 3 second interval between a substitute entering it and the replaced player leaving it.

Not sure if they have something similar in NF.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by PSU213

Actually there is no rule that forbids 11 in the huddle (but that is another story all together). As for 20 players during a conference, coaches around here are pretty good about this one and if they have too many, we let them know and they remove players so they only have 11.

True there is no rule that forbids 11 players in the huddle as that is the maximum. I never said that.
2-30-1 A player is one of the 22 team members who is designated to start either half of the game or who subsequently replaces another player. A player continues to be a player until a substitute enters the field and indicates to the player that he is replaced, or when the substitute otherwise becomes a player.
3-7-2 Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field immediately.
3.7.2 SITUATION B: Substitutes A12 and B12 properly enter the game between downs. The replaced player of A remains in the team huddle while the replaced B player leaves the field immediately. RULING: In this situation, A is charged with a 5-yard dead-ball foul for an illegal substitution because the replaced player of A did not leave as required.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by mbcrowder
NCAA 3-5-2c: A player who is replaced must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle or his position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately. Team A may not break it's huddle with 12 or more players.

This would (in NCAA) mean to me that you cannot have more than 11 in the huddle except for the 3 second interval between a substitute entering it and the replaced player leaving it.

Not sure if they have something similar in NF.

NOthing this complex in the NF rules for subs. It just states the the replaced player must leave the field immediately. Sounds like the NCAA rules gives more informaiton as to what they consider immediately. There is no penalty for breaking the huddle with 12 in NFHS unless one of those 12 doesn't leave immediately.