Free kick batting

[Rich]

We had a play a few weeks ago that eventually led to a discussion of this play:

K's free kick gets through the receivers and is rolling towards and near the goal line.

R24 runs back and at the two yard line bats the ball across the goal line into the end zone.

Ruling?

[Welpe]

2-13-4

ART. 4 . . . Force is not a factor:

a. On kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.

So the result of the play is a touchback.

Foul for illegal batting. This is during a loose ball play so the previous spot is the basic spot. 15 yards from the previous spot and replay the kick or decline and accept the result of the play.

[MTUMP]

Originally Posted by Welpe

2-13-4

ART. 4 . . . Force is not a factor:

a. On kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.

So the result of the play is a touchback.

Foul for illegal batting. This is during a loose ball play so the previous spot is the basic spot. 15 yards from the previous spot and replay the kick or decline and accept the result of the play.

Welpe: 2 questions:
1. wouldn't the All-But-One principle apply here? R's (offense) foul is behind the basic spot, so enforce at the spot of the foul?

2. How does this play change if it is a scrimmage kick? (Assuming PSK applies here?).

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MTUMP

Welpe: 2 questions:
1. wouldn't the All-But-One principle apply here? R's (offense) foul is behind the basic spot, so enforce at the spot of the foul?

A couple things to think about. What is the basic spot for a loose ball play? Who was in possession at the time of the foul?

2. How does this play change if it is a scrimmage kick? (Assuming PSK applies here?).

You are correct that PSK does apply here. The result of the play is the same but the enforcement is different.

From a philosophy standpoint you may want to consider whether the bat towards the team's own endzone is really enough to warrant a call or not. On a scrimmage kick if the ball is certainly going into the endzone without the bat it may not be worth flagging this. That's a big foul for no advantage gained.

[MTUMP]

Originally Posted by Welpe

A couple things to think about. What is the basic spot for a loose ball play? Who was in possession at the time of the foul?

You are correct that PSK does apply here. The result of the play is the same but the enforcement is different.

From a philosophy standpoint you may want to consider whether the bat towards the team's own endzone is really enough to warrant a call or not. On a scrimmage kick if the ball is certainly going into the endzone without the bat it may not be worth flagging this. That's a big foul for no advantage gained.

I hear your point on philosophy...but as stated, for question 1, previous spot is the basic spot for loose ball play, and K is in possession, so enforce IB from K's 40 if accepted. Replay free kick at R's 45

for #2 (Scrimmage Kick): the end of the kick is at the goal line, thus the basic spot is R's 20 for PSK enforcement. Since R's foul is behind the basic spot, enforce 1/2 the distance from R's 2 yd line. First and 10 for R at 1 yd line.

[Middleman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

From a philosophy standpoint you may want to consider whether the bat towards the team's own endzone is really enough to warrant a call or not. On a scrimmage kick if the ball is certainly going into the endzone without the bat it may not be worth flagging this. That's a big foul for no advantage gained.

I don't see that there is no advantage gained.

Since a kick entering the end zone is always a touchback, I see it as an 18 yard advantage for the receivers if you don't make the call. The ball goes out to the 20 yd line, guaranteed, and the receiver doesn't have to pick it up and run, get hit, risk a fumble, or risk the chance that the kicking team recovers it (free kick) or downs it (scrimmage kick) before it enters the end zone.

Footballs tend to take funny bounces. There is never a certainty that the ball will go into the end zone until it gets there. Batting it to help it along is not harmless.

I'd flag it ...

[Texas Aggie]

R24 runs back and at the two yard line bats the ball across the goal line into the end zone.

Ruling?

NCAA: legal play. Safety. Batting changes the impetus of the ball.

We discussed something similar in our pregame last week.