Scrimmage kick play question

[scrounge]

So....who touched the ball and when? From the description, it doesn't much matter if R blocked/tipped/touched the punt at first at all, if the punt went beyond the LOS, we're ignoring that.

So it comes down to if R touched it beyond the LOS (for purposes of this discussion, 'LOS' means the expanded neutral zone, up to 2 yds from the ball at the snap).

If R did touch it when you say 'An R player tries to recover the punt beyond the LOS', then if K recovers the ball, it's K 1st and 10. Additionally, if K were to recover the ball in or behind the LOS, they can advance it. Original LTG is immaterial at this point, because R touched it beyond the LOS.

Now if R didn't touch it, then it's just run of the mill first touching by K, R ball.

[HLin NC]

Since R "tries to recover the punt beyond the LOS", I am going to read that as R touched it beyond the line. It is literally K-atie bar the door at that point. As scrounge aptly put, K can recover and even advance if it wound up recovered behind the line or K can pass it, or kick it again, behind the line and guess what? If it falls incomplete, it's still their ball. Line to gain has no significance at this point.

As a old WH used to tell us in pre-game, if R touches it, it's a first down for somebody at the end of the down.

R's touching of a low scrimmage kick is ignored.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Since R "tries to recover the punt beyond the LOS", I am going to read that as R touched it beyond the line. It is literally K-atie bar the door at that point. As scrounge aptly put, K can recover and even advance if it wound up recovered behind the line or K can pass it, or kick it again, behind the line and guess what? If it falls incomplete, it's still their ball. Line to gain has no significance at this point.

As a old WH used to tell us in pre-game, if R touches it, it's a first down for somebody at the end of the down.

R's touching of a low scrimmage kick is ignored.

As a one-time (as in two fill-in games) official, can you explain this part? I know a backwards pass is always legal, but I don't understand how, after a R-touched kick recovery, a K-team could attempt a forward pass (incomplete) and still have possession have the end of the play. I don't own a recent rule book, so if you can explain it in layman's terms AND give a rule cite, I'd be appreciative.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by teebob21

As a one-time (as in two fill-in games) official, can you explain this part? I know a backwards pass is always legal, but I don't understand how, after a R-touched kick recovery, a K-team could attempt a forward pass (incomplete) and still have possession have the end of the play. I don't own a recent rule book, so if you can explain it in layman's terms AND give a rule cite, I'd be appreciative.

FED 5-3-f
"A new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone..."

If K recovers a scrimmage kick behind the neutral zone, they may run, pass or kick. An incomplete pass results in a new series for K (they are still in possession at the end of the down, since team possession has not changed) at the previous spot.

Case book play 5.1.3D is directly on point.

[Altor]

Once R touches a kick beyond the expanded neutral zone, whoever is in possession of the ball at the end of the down will have a new series. Period.

It is possible for R to muff the punt from a point beyond the ENZ, the ball bounce back behind the LOS, K picks the ball up and attempts a forward pass (which is a legal play in NFHS if the pass was made from behind the LOS). If the pass lands incomplete, the ball is returned to the previous spot, but because of the principle in my first paragraph, it will be 1st down.

[CoachLamb]

Thanks for the responses guys. I umpire high school baseball, but I've never honestly gotten into the football rule book like I should...I'm sure that's not a surprise to you guys lol.

I did buy the eversion of the rules book because I was trying to find this answer for myself without bugging you guys with it.

While we are here.... can you guys shine some light on some common rule misconceptions that high school football coaches have. I'm curious how much "tie goes to the runner" type of stuff I'm guilty of as a coach.

Thanks fellas.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by CoachLamb

While we are here.... can you guys shine some light on some common rule misconceptions that high school football coaches have. I'm curious how much "tie goes to the runner" type of stuff I'm guilty of as a coach.

That's a FAQ not only here but elsewhere. You could probably find it in fairly short order by searching.

[HLin NC]

can you guys shine some light on some common rule misconceptions that high school football coaches have.

There are many but my first insight is.............

STOP WATCHING THE NFL AND COLLEGE FOOTBALL

That alone would stop the vast majority of misconceptions HS coaches have.

1) There is no 5 yard "chuck zone".
2) There is no 4th down fumble rule.
3) A PAT/try is DEAD when it is apparent the kick/play has failed or B gains possession, no 97 yard run to glory.
4) There is no "dey broke duh huddle wif tway-yulv".
5) There is no "uncatchable pass".
6) Ineligible downfield is NOT a loss of down foul.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by teebob21

As a one-time (as in two fill-in games) official, can you explain this part? I know a backwards pass is always legal, but I don't understand how, after a R-touched kick recovery, a K-team could attempt a forward pass (incomplete) and still have possession have the end of the play. I don't own a recent rule book, so if you can explain it in layman's terms AND give a rule cite, I'd be appreciative.

You could look back 50 years in Fed rules (and even other codes) & come to the same conclusion. The old series of downs & distance is abrogated once the receiving team first-touches the ball on their side of the [expanded] neutral zone. Since there's no way to begin a new series in the middle of a down, the new series is going to open with the next snap. How could it be anything other than first down, and how could team possession be anything other than that of the most recent player's possession?

You could get back to something dependent on the previous down & distance if a penalty for a foul preceding the kick is accepted, but otherwise it's just history.