You make the call

[trcallins]

A 4th & goal from the 9 yard line, attempting field goal. Snap bounces/rolls 4-5 times before it gets to holder. Holder then muffs the ball before getting it on the tee. His knee stays down the entire time. Rusher from blind side gets there and plows through the holder reaching for the ball. Holder loses contact with ball, but before it falls all the way over, kicker kicks it into linesman where it is recovered by B.

What, if any, penalty or penalties do we have? (Not hypothetical, this actually happened Friday night.)

[Robert Goodman]

Both the Fed & NCAA definitions of place kick (when it's taken from scrimmage) require that the ball be controlled by a teammate, so once the holder lost contact with the ball, I don't think it can be said any longer to be so controlled. So the kicking of the ball does not constitute a place kick. It satisfies NCAA's description of illegally kicking the ball, the ball's being loose; but I don't think it'd be illegally kicking the ball in Fed, which specifies intentionally kicking the ball other than as one of the allowed kicks. It may be said that the kicker intended to make a place kick, and simply followed thru. Maybe there's an official interpretation for such a play, which it would seem would come up fairly often.

Then we have a kicked ball touching an official, who presumably had moved infield to cover the field goal attempt. Neither Fed nor NCAA has specific coverage for a kicked ball's merely touching an official, although it might call for an equitable ruling if the deflection off the official works substantially to the favor of either team. Is this considered a tough-luck play, or is an equitable ruling called for?

You didn't say where B recovered. If it was in their end zone, they should decline the previous-spot enforcement of 10 yards for illegally kicking the ball (NCAA) to get an extra yard of field position. Since I'm not sure there was a foul by Fed rules (see above), I'm not saying anything about that.

[trcallins]

Sorry, the ball hit a player lineman in the back, not the L. I didn't realize I had an "s" in the word.

To be more specific, does anyone see roughing the holder and/or illegal kicking in this scenario? And this is NHFS rules.

[scrounge]

Sounds like roughing may not enter into this, because with the muffed snap and a loose ball laying around, it's not reasonably certain that a kick will occur at all. So unless the contact is otherwise a personal foul (spearing, illegal helmet contact, etc) or you think the contact could have been avoided once it was apparent a kick was going to be made, sounds like nothing on that front.

Absent that, all I have is illegal kicking, because of the ball not being controlled by a teammate or fulfilling the requirements of a drop kick. Fed has a case play that pretty much covers this one:

9.7.1 SITUATION A:

On a field-goal attempt, holder A2 muffs the snap and is attempting to gain possession of the ball on the ground when A1 kicks it between the uprights over the crossbar.

RULING: An illegal kick by A1. If the penalty is declined, the result of the play is a touchback as the illegal kick cannot score a field goal. (2-24-7)

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by scrounge

Sounds like roughing may not enter into this, because with the muffed snap and a loose ball laying around, it's not reasonably certain that a kick will occur at all.

Especially since the contact occurred before the attempted kick.

So unless the contact is otherwise a personal foul (spearing, illegal helmet contact, etc) or you think the contact could have been avoided once it was apparent a kick was going to be made,

I don't see how you could ever have roughing-the-holder for its being apparent a kick was going to be made, if the kick had not (yet) been made.

Absent that, all I have is illegal kicking, because of the ball not being controlled by a teammate or fulfilling the requirements of a drop kick. Fed has a case play that pretty much covers this one:

9.7.1 SITUATION A:

On a field-goal attempt, holder A2 muffs the snap and is attempting to gain possession of the ball on the ground when A1 kicks it between the uprights over the crossbar.

RULING: An illegal kick by A1. If the penalty is declined, the result of the play is a touchback as the illegal kick cannot score a field goal. (2-24-7)

I figured it likely there'd be a case play somewhat on point, but this one doesn't look close enough. A holder's attempting to gain possession of the ball on the ground reads differently from a ball that hasn't even fallen all the way over. In the case play, the kicker definitely still wanted to kick that ball even while seeing it was loose. In the play here, it's likely the kicker had started his motion and had no chance to pull up in time to not meet the ball with his foot. So I'm not sure it fits Fed's illegal kick provision. Because of different wording, though, it does fit NCAA's ruling of illegal kick. So in NCAA, illegal kick, but in Fed, it's a nothing, just a loose ball. Team A provided the impetus if the ball enters B's end zone.

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I figured it likely there'd be a case play somewhat on point, but this one doesn't look close enough. A holder's attempting to gain possession of the ball on the ground reads differently from a ball that hasn't even fallen all the way over. In the case play, the kicker definitely still wanted to kick that ball even while seeing it was loose. In the play here, it's likely the kicker had started his motion and had no chance to pull up in time to not meet the ball with his foot. So I'm not sure it fits Fed's illegal kick provision. Because of different wording, though, it does fit NCAA's ruling of illegal kick. So in NCAA, illegal kick, but in Fed, it's a nothing, just a loose ball. Team A provided the impetus if the ball enters B's end zone.

I'm not sure there's really all that much distinction. As we see in the definition of a legal scrimmage kick in Fed:

ART. 4 . . . A scrimmage kick is any kick from in or behind the neutral zone during a scrimmage down. Either a place kick, punt, or drop kick may be used. For a place kick, the ball must be controlled on the ground or on a legal kicking tee by a teammate.

In the OP, we have a ball that is falling over, but just hasn't fallen all the way over. Even if barely falling, that doesn't sound like controlled on the ground or on a legal kicking tee by a teammate to me. Intent of the kicker doesn't matter here, so I still have illegal kicking.