Rationale for TD

[Suudy]

Watching the WSU/Oregon game Saturday (wild one, double OT), the second OT TD for WSU got me thinking. Of course the announcers are clueless, but I had a thought on this.

I tried to embed the video (didn't work), and here's a link to ESPN's highlight.

Luke Falk pass complete to Robert Lewis for 4 yds for a TD - ESPN Video

For those that don't want to watch the video, here's the scenario. (I think) 3rd and goal for WSU. A4 throws a pass to A21 who is hit and falls to the ground near the GL. After hitting the ground, the ball pops in the air and A15 catches the ball and runs in for a TD. There was a discussion among the officials and they said (if I remember correctly) "The ruling on the field is that the ball never hit the ground. Touchdown."

This seemed like the right call to me.

Of course the announcers are saying during the replay that they thought the receiver was down. And in the replay he was on the ground with the ball before it popped loose. But given the NCAA's AR about continuing action, I would think that had the ball hit the ground they would have ruled the pass incomplete.

Does this seem right?

In my opinion, they had 2 choices: the receiver is down (and given where it looks like the ball is when he hits the ground TD) or the catch was never completed and the ball never hit the ground, so TD. What I found strange was that they had to have such a long conversation about it.

(Note: IMO, the officiating was suspect at many times. There was a case where they had a flag on the field for OPI, but then waved it off saying the pass was completed behind the LOS. Yet replay clearly showed the receiver 3-4 yards past the LOS. The official on the field had the flag, and I'd think that since he threw the flag he knew where the pass was relative to the LOS. And there another case where the D had grabbed the facemask of the QB, who then threw the ball, and they called IG. And others.)

[jTheUmp]

To complete a catch while going to the ground, you must survive the contact with the ground. In this case, A21 did not survive the contact with the ground with the ball in his possession.

If the sideline and/or end line aren't involved (and they weren't in this particular play)... the a pass can't be incomplete until it hits the ground. Since A15 managed to catch the ball and advance into B's end zone, we have a touchdown.

As for "having a long conversation"... so what? Talk it out, get the call right. Televised games are already 3-4 hours long anyway, so what's an extra 15 seconds to make sure you get the call correct?

There was a case where they had a flag on the field for OPI, but then waved it off saying the pass was completed behind the LOS. Yet replay clearly showed the receiver 3-4 yards past the LOS. The official on the field had the flag, and I'd think that since he threw the flag he knew where the pass was relative to the LOS.

Which official threw the flag? If it was a deep official (F/S/B), there's no way they're going to know where the pass is caught relative to the LOS, because they're going to be at least 22-24 yards downfield. If the deep official has an OPI foul on a play like that, they're supposed to throw the flag and then get help from the L/U/H with regards to where the pass is caught.

[jchamp]

If they're trying to determine what the result of the play is, to determine the "ruling on the field", they have to determine
1) did the receiver carry the ball across the goal line?
1a) if not, did he fumble?
1b) if no fumble, what is the spot?
1c) if fumble, whatare the circumstances of the recovery?
Finally, are there any penalties, or anything that wasn't a penalty (yet) because of other action in the play that is reviewable?
Even with the WH properly controlling the conversation, this could take a couple minutes to sort out on a broken play.
And please, Back Judge if you've got offsetting live ball fouls, tell me up front and we'll just replay the down.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

As for "having a long conversation"... so what? Talk it out, get the call right. Televised games are already 3-4 hours long anyway, so what's an extra 15 seconds to make sure you get the call correct?

I wasn't clear. What I mean was the delay in the initial signal for TD. The conversation itself wasn't the problem.

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Which official threw the flag? If it was a deep official (F/S/B), there's no way they're going to know where the pass is caught relative to the LOS, because they're going to be at least 22-24 yards downfield. If the deep official has an OPI foul on a play like that, they're supposed to throw the flag and then get help from the L/U/H with regards to where the pass is caught.

Good question.

Jeff Lockie pass complete to Royce Freeman for 17 yds for a TD WASHINGTON ST Penalty, Defensive offside ( Yards) declined - ESPN Video

And I think you are right, it wasn't the HL. It looks like the HL comes in and says the pass was completed behind the LOS.

[jTheUmp]

Thanks for the video on the OPI play. Looks like the foul was on the B's key (second receiver from the sideline) about 3 yards downfield from the LOS. In that case, it was almost certainly B's flag (and he'd be standing on the end line, 26 yards from the LOS). So B has to throw the flag, and then ask H where the pass was caught.

If the H said it was behind the LOS... B picks up his flag, and H gets a downgrade.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Thanks for the video on the OPI play. Looks like the foul was on the B's key (second receiver from the sideline) about 3 yards downfield from the LOS. In that case, it was almost certainly B's flag (and he'd be standing on the end line, 26 yards from the LOS). So B has to throw the flag, and then ask H where the pass was caught.

If the H said it was behind the LOS... B picks up his flag, and H gets a downgrade.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

So how do keys work in 7/8 man mechanics? I presume that the H/LJ would have the area near the LOS since there is plenty of help downfield. Keys are an initial read, and given the strength was to the H side, he'd have the inside receivers (at least in 5 man mechanics).

And re-watching, the receiver was the back. Who has the back in this case? Apparently the B?

[jTheUmp]

Initial receiver keys are the same in both 7- and 8- person mechanics.

Backs in the tackle box are ignored for purposes of determining initial keys.

Assuming nobody in motion:
F and S have the widest receiver on their side of the formation.

L and H have the second receiver (counting from the sideline towards the ball).

B has the 3rd receiver on the trips side. If there are two receivers on each side, B takes the 2nd receiver on L's side, and L shifts to the running back. If the 3rd receiver is a TE, B will initially key on the TE, but will switch to the 2nd receiver if the TE doesn't release down-field immediately at the snap (and H or L, depending on which side the TE's on, will switch from 2nd receiver to the TE).

If 4 receivers line up on one side, B takes 3rd and 4th receivers.

If a receiver is in motion, H and L are responsible for the motion man on their side of the ball, no matter where he is on the field relative to other receivers, and F/S/B switch their keys accordingly.

There's a couple wrinkles that I won't get into here... what I said above covers about 90% of situations.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Initial receiver keys are the same in both 7- and 8- person mechanics.

Backs in the tackle box are ignored for purposes of determining initial keys.

Assuming nobody in motion:
F and S have the widest receiver on their side of the formation.

L and H have the second receiver (counting from the sideline towards the ball).

B has the 3rd receiver on the trips side. If there are two receivers on each side, B takes the 2nd receiver on L's side, and L shifts to the running back. If the 3rd receiver is a TE, B will initially key on the TE, but will switch to the 2nd receiver if the TE doesn't release down-field immediately at the snap (and H or L, depending on which side the TE's on, will switch from 2nd receiver to the TE).

If 4 receivers line up on one side, B takes 3rd and 4th receivers.

If a receiver is in motion, H and L are responsible for the motion man on their side of the ball, no matter where he is on the field relative to other receivers, and F/S/B switch their keys accordingly.

There's a couple wrinkles that I won't get into here... what I said above covers about 90% of situations.

Phew. Complex! And I remember when we went from 4-man to 5-man, and keys were a new concept. Seems like going from 5-man to 7-man would be quite a shift.

And I'm unsure what you mean in the motion case. You say H/L are "responsible for the motion made on their side of the ball." Can this change? So in the play posted, the motion man starts on the LJ side and goes to the H side. Does LJ have him the whole time? Or does he pass it to H when H gets to his side?

Thanks for the details. Perhaps technical and boring to some, but I find it very interesting and greatly appreciate your detailed response.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by Suudy

You say H/L are "responsible for the motion made on their side of the ball." Can this change? So in the play posted, the motion man starts on the LJ side and goes to the H side. Does LJ have him the whole time? Or does he pass it to H when H gets to his side?

In that scenario, L will take the motion man until he passes the center, then he becomes H's key.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Thanks for the video on the OPI play. Looks like the foul was on the B's key (second receiver from the sideline) about 3 yards downfield from the LOS. In that case, it was almost certainly B's flag (and he'd be standing on the end line, 26 yards from the LOS). So B has to throw the flag, and then ask H where the pass was caught.

If the H said it was behind the LOS... B picks up his flag, and H gets a downgrade.

Looks like the Pac-12 acknowledged the missed OPI call.

Pac-12 VP of officiating addresses controversial calls from last week - Pac-12 Blog - ESPN

But no mention of the mechanics.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

If a receiver is in motion, H and L are responsible for the motion man on their side of the ball, no matter where he is on the field relative to other receivers, and F/S/B switch their keys accordingly.

This is not correct according to CFO mechanics. Keys are determined at the snap. So wherever the motion man is relative to the other players at the snap determines the key assignment.