First Touching

[whitehat]

This is a bit long but bear with me...
I am fairly confident in how the NF "First touching" rule applies under normal circumstances. Seen that in games fairly often. And yet I am still a big foggy on the application of the rule if K is first to touch the kick, then R touches it and thereafter fouls. (What is adding to my confusion is the CASE book situation Ruling 6.2.5 sit. c)

It appears that the ruling does not allow K to retain the ball downfield, even after they have recovered R's fumble (after a first touching by K, foul by R). CB says If K accepts R's foul for holding, then it is enforced from the previous spot since PSK does not apply (Does this mean we give ball to K, after penalty enforcement, for R's holding foul, from previous spot if yardage enough for 1st down. Or, after R holding enforced from previous spot does K get a 1st down, due to R touching it beyond the neutral zone...??). CB also says If K declines R's foul, "then R gets the ball at spot of first touching."

The confusion in my mind may be the difference in when the foul by R occurred (that is what I am asking). In the CB ruling R's foul happened "during the kick" as opposed to R fouling after R had possessed the kick (ending the kick phase). Had R fouled after touching the ball and the kick had ended (say a hold on the return) then K could keep the ball, despite their earlier first touching, if K declines the hold on the return.

Can anyone clear this up a bit for me? :-/

[yankeesfan]

Did R foul before the kick ended?


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[whitehat]

Yes, the Case book play has the foul occuring durign the kick.

[yankeesfan]

(Does this mean we give ball to K, after penalty enforcement, for R's holding foul, from previous spot if yardage enough for 1st down. Or, after R holding enforced from previous spot does K get a 1st down, due to R touching it beyond the neutral zone...??).

it would have to be that if the yardage is enough it would be a first down.

[Cliffdweller]

I guarantee you, the crew I am on would have told K in order to keep the ball they would have to decline the foul by R and we would have gave them the ball where they recovered the ball. Seems logical to me since the kick ended with R's recovery.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by whitehat

(Does this mean we give ball to K, after penalty enforcement, for R's holding foul, from previous spot if yardage enough for 1st down. Or, after R holding enforced from previous spot does K get a 1st down, due to R touching it beyond the neutral zone...??).

In this case the penalty is enforced from the previous spot because the foul was not a PSK foul and it occurred during a loose ball play, same as if the foul was by Team B during a forward pass. This foul by R is not a PSK foul because K will be the team to next put the ball in play as a result of the play, which is R touching a scrimmage kick beyond the LOS and Team K recovering.

Enforcing R's foul from the previous spot will result in a first down for K due to the 10 yard penalty carrying the ball beyond the line to gain.

Had R fouled after touching the ball and the kick had ended (say a hold on the return) then K could keep the ball, despite their earlier first touching, if K declines the hold on the return.

This is correct. The timing of the foul matters. Look at the last line of 6-2-5:

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down."

In your proposed scenario, R fouling after touching the kick is the key. This cancels the first touching, even if the foul is declined by K.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Cliffdweller

I guarantee you, the crew I am on would have told K in order to keep the ball they would have to decline the foul by R and we would have gave them the ball where they recovered the ball. Seems logical to me since the kick ended with R's recovery.

For which scenario? In the case book play you would be wrong because if K declines the penalty for R's foul, first touching applies and R would be awarded the ball at the spot of first touching.

[Cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Welpe

For which scenario? In the case book play you would be wrong because if K declines the penalty for R's foul, first touching applies and R would be awarded the ball at the spot of first touching.

Exactly what I was saying, we would have enforced it wrong. Taking yardage away from K just doesn't seem right....

[Welpe]

Ah I follow you now. I don't disagree but just keep in mind that they screwed up too. If they hadn't committed first touching they could've kept the yardage.