First Touching or......

[JRutledge]

4th and 10 from the K's own 10 Yard line.

K1 kicks the ball to the 15 where K45 (first) touches the ball and bounces back to K's 5 yard line. K88 picks up the ball and runs to the 25 yard line (K's side).

Who gets the ball and why? Rules references would be appreciated.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

4th and 10 from the K's own 10 Yard line.

K1 kicks the ball to the 15 where K45 (first) touches the ball and bounces back to K's 5 yard line. K88 picks up the ball and runs to the 25 yard line (K's side).

Who gets the ball and why? Rules references would be appreciated.

CANADIAN RULING:

Flag for Restraining Zone foul by K45. 15 yard variety. Half the distance to the goal, B 1D/G @ K-7½.

[PaulJak]

I'll give it a shot.

6-2-5 - ... If any K player touches a scrimmage kick in this manner (described in the first paragraph as first touching), R may take the ball at the spot of first touching, or any spot if there is more than one spot of first touching, or they may choose to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching... (More stuff about R losing this right if R touches that ball and then commits a foul or any foul is accepted).

So since in this case, no foul is referenced, R has the option to determine if they want the first touching spot or to put the ball in play as determined by the action (which they wouldn't since it would be K's ball).

I'm sure people will site the rule about K being able to advance a kick recovered behind the NZ, but first touching occurred first and gives R the options on the action after that (so long as there are no fouls on the play).

Ruling: R's ball 1st and 10 from K's 15.

[MJT]

5-1-4 "Unless first touched by R beyond the neutral zone, if the kickers recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone and the ball has not been touched first by R beyond the neutral zone, the ball remains live and belongs to K and the down counts."

[PaulJak]

So it would seem that these two rules are in conflict with each other.

In this case, R has not first touched, so by 5-1-4 K has recovered behind the NZ and advanced.

But, 6-2-5 would seem to give R options since K first touched in this case.

So which rule takes precedence? Do you take the events in order of occurance? First touching proceeded K's recovery and advance.

I believe that the first touching by K should probably give R its choice of options, kind of like when K first touches and then R fumbles later in the run back. Even if K recovers R has the option of going back to the spot of 1st touching.

[BoBo]

without seeing a rule book i would give the ball to R at first touching.

what would prevent K from batting the ball behind the line of scrimmage to gain this advantage. it is legal for K to bat a scrimmage kick towards its own goal.

this would be a huge advantage by k.

R football 1st and 10 at first touching

[MJT]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

So it would seem that these two rules are in conflict with each other.

In this case, R has not first touched, so by 5-1-4 K has recovered behind the NZ and advanced.

But, 6-2-5 would seem to give R options since K first touched in this case.

So which rule takes precedence? Do you take the events in order of occurance? First touching proceeded K's recovery and advance.

I believe that the first touching by K should probably give R its choice of options, kind of like when K first touches and then R fumbles later in the run back. Even if K recovers R has the option of going back to the spot of 1st touching.

PaulJak, you are confused. Since R did NOT touch the ball beyond the NZ the ball will NOT belong to K at the end of the down, 5-1-4
R has the option of taking the ball at first touching, 6-2-5.

There is no conflict here. 6-2-5 states what happens if there is first touching and 5-1-4 states what happens if there is no first touching and the ball comes back behind the NZ.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by MJT

5-1-4 "Unless first touched by R beyond the neutral zone, if the kickers recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone and the ball has not been touched first by R beyond the neutral zone, the ball remains live and belongs to K and the down counts."

Took me a little while to figure this out but here's what I came up with. First, the wording of 5-1-4 was changed for this year. I don't see that the intent of the rule has changed and I'm not sure the wording cleared up any misunderstandings.

In the OP, we have first touching by K at K's 45. The ball then bounds back behind the LOS where it is picked up by K at K's 5 and advanced to K's 25. R can elect to take the ball at the spot of first touch, K's 45. First touching only applies to touches beyond the neutral zone so the touch by K at K's 5 is ignored.

Rule 5-1-4 applies to a new series of downs. Simply stated, if R is the first to touch the ball beyond the expanded neutral zone and it then bounds back behind the LOS and is recovered by K, K will be awarded a new series of downs. If the kick crosses the neutral zone and then bounds back behind the neutral zone and it was not touched by R the down will count. If K kicked on 4th down they will turn the ball over on downs. If they kicked on 3rd down they will be able to put it in play for 4th down.

Simple to remember, if R touches a scrimmage kick beyond the expanded neutral zone it will be a first down for whatever team gains possession of the ball.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by MJT

PaulJak, you are confused. Since R did NOT touch the ball beyond the NZ the ball will NOT belong to K at the end of the down, 5-1-4
R has the option of taking the ball at first touching, 6-2-5.

There is no conflict here. 6-2-5 states what happens if there is first touching and 5-1-4 states what happens if there is no first touching and the ball comes back behind the NZ.

Sorry, MJT. I thought since all you did was cite 5-1-4 with no additional explanation I thought you were saying I was wrong and that 5-1-4 should apply.

So my original ruling of R's ball 1st and 10 from K's 15 was correct by rule 6-2-5.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by waltjp

... In the OP, we have first touching by K at K's 45...

Agree with the ruling, but the OP had first touching at the 15 by K45, not at the 45.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Agree with the ruling, but the OP had first touching at the 15 by K45, not at the 45.

Whoops, my mistake. Still R's ball at spot of first touch.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MJT

5-1-4 "Unless first touched by R

Shouldn't that be K? Only that way is it not redundant with:

beyond the neutral zone, if the kickers recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the neutral zone and the ball has not been touched first by R beyond the neutral zone, the ball remains live and belongs to K and the down counts."

[waltjp]

No, Robert. Rule 5-1-4 is correctly worded. If K is the first to touch the kick beyond the neutral zone R will have the option of taking the ball at the spot of the first touch.

If it's R that first touches the ball beyond the neutral zone and the ball is recovered by K behind the neutral zone K will keep the ball and have a new series of downs.

If the ball is recovered by K behind the neutral zone and it has not been touched by K or R beyond the neutral zone the ball will belong to K and the down will count. If it was 4th down they will turn the ball over on downs. If it was 3rd down they will put the ball in play for 4th down.

Whenever the ball is first touched by R beyond the neutral zone it's going to be a first down for somebody.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

4th and 10 from the K's own 10 Yard line.

K1 kicks the ball to the 15 where K45 (first) touches the ball and bounces back to K's 5 yard line. K88 picks up the ball and runs to the 25 yard line (K's side).

Who gets the ball and why? Rules references would be appreciated.

Nice question. The real conflict here is between 5-1-3a (which awards a new series to A when they reach the LTG) and 5-1-3g (which awards a new series to R in the event of first touching). Obviously, we can't award a new series to both teams.

I agree with pretty much everyone else: 6-2-5 makes it clear that first touching supersedes reaching the LTG (barring a foul). Therefore, R 1/10 @ K15.