Shooting Foul? (Video)

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Correct. The NFHS and NBA both consider the gather to be the beginning of the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball" whereas NCAA-M specifically requires upward motion to be considered shooting.

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

i do know ncaa does not include foot movement for continuous motion. thx

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

i do know ncaa does not include foot movement for continuous motion. thx

It doesn't, shooting motion is totally the judgment of the official, it is not defined:

4-41 ART. 3

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The word "gathering" should not ever be used. Quoting both the NFHS and NCAA rules: "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

"(T)he motion which habitually precedes the releas of the ball" in our video is when the dribbler ends her dribble. It is my opinion, after watching the video, that #15 actions do not rise to the level of a foul, but was the dribbler was fouled by the next defensive player after #15. I agree with Camron that the dribbler was fouled in the act of shooting but her allowable foot movements ended before she released the ball in a FG.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

Same place it says this:

Originally Posted by BigCat

i need to see some movement up before i give her two.

The habitual motion doesn't have to be upward motion. Many times, on a layup, it's a dip. It's whatever habitual movement precedes the shot.

Originally Posted by Adam

It's whatever habitual movement precedes the shot.

Like, for example, the "gather" which ends the dribble and typically precedes a shot?

[OKREF]

I watched the video again, I'm changing my mind. I'm giving 2 shots. She is starting the shot as she gets fouled. However, I'm still sticking by a gather doesn't mean shooting motion.

[Nevadaref]

We had a long thread on this several years ago immediately after the NCAA stated that officials were not awarding FTs for fouls committed during the act of shooting properly and that after a player had gathered the ball fouls should be deemed in the act of shooting. NCAAM subsequently changed again a year or so later to the upward movement standard.
The NFHS has never had such a directive. I stated in the thread way back then that some sort of motion with the arms that indicated the start of an attempt to try for goal was necessary at the NFHS level. Simply ending the dribble is not enough as a player could also be passing or just coming to a stop. There has to be some movement after that point make the official believe that a try has begun.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We had a long thread on this several years ago immediately after the NCAA stated that officials were not awarding FTs for fouls committed during the act of shooting properly and that after a player had gathered the ball fouls should be deemed in the act of shooting. NCAAM subsequently changed again a year or so later to the upward movement standard.
The NFHS has never had such a directive. I stated in the thread way back then that some sort of motion with the arms that indicated the start of an attempt to try for goal was necessary at the NFHS level. Simply ending the dribble is not enough as a player could also be passing or just coming to a stop. There has to be some movement after that point make the official believe that a try has begun.

Well that is not what the rules says. It says the habitual throwing movement starts a try. So how do you determine that other than the moment you gather the ball? Your arms are not necessarily going to go up to make a shot. True you could pass, but if they are not shooting, they can do something that looks like a pass. But even the casebook has a play that says if you are prevented from releasing on a shot, we are still to consider it a pass. But like many things these are philosophies as much as anything. I just do not agree that we cannot determine if they are shooting if they are fouled right after the gather.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well that is not what the rules says. It says the habitual throwing movement starts a try. So how do you determine that other than the moment you gather the ball?

As posted earlier, this is what the rule says, "These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started..."

I concur that the key is how one defines "usual throwing motion" or "habitual motion." I disagree that it is just gathering the ball. It is definitely something more.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As posted earlier, this is what the rule says, "These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started..."

I concur that the key is how one defines "usual throwing motion" or "habitual motion." I disagree that it is just gathering the ball. It is definitely something more.

I do not totally disagree other than there is not line of demarcation. And that is why the gather is often used. Either way if it is not defined, officials will rule all kinds of ways. This philosophy keeps us more consistent IMO.

Peace