![]() |
|
![]() |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Rate Thread | Display Modes |
|
|
|||
Quote:
![]() Noting that all discussion of the Case Book plays is in regards to Rule 4-44-5: The Case Book play 4.44.5 SIT D: starts with the player securing possession of the ball while kneeling on one knee. The language of the Case Book play accepts the action of lifting that one knee to be an attempt to stand, that is, on both feet. This is consistent with the generally accepted definition of kneeling, as having either or both knees touching the floor; and with the definition of standing, as having both feet touching the floor, or one foot touching the floor and the other suspended in the air or touching an object above the floor. (See Rule 4-44-2 a 1.) The Case Book play does not address actions prior to the player coming to the position of kneeling on one knee. It does not address how the player arrived at the position of kneeling on one knee. In fact, the Case Book play cannot address any such actions, because the Ruling involves the player having possession of the ball. If the player starts in a position of kneeling on both knees, and then secures possession of the ball, upon lifting one knee, the player is still defined as kneeling, and has only arrived at the starting position noted in the Case Book play. And as stated in the Case Book play, an "attempt to stand" has not yet started, and a violation is still not applied to an action prior to the attempt to stand. Case Book plays 4.44.5 SIT A and 4.44.5 SIT C address actions prior to the actions noted in Case Book play 4.44.5 D. Those actions include A) falling to the floor while holding the ball, and C) dropping to the floor with one "a" 'knee while dribbling. In Case Book play 4.44.5 SIT B the phrase "Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling." Upon noting that the word "feet" is plural, and that a person kneeling on one knee is considered to be kneeling and not standing, one may logically consider movement from a position of kneeling on two knees to kneeling on one knee is not an "attempt to get to the feet" (plural). Indeed, the writer(s) of Case Book play 4.44.5 SIT D chose to address neither the issue of a player securing possession of the ball while kneeling on both knees, nor the action of that player changing from both knees touching the floor, to one knee touching the floor. The issue addressed is narrow, and the lifting of the one knee of the player, while holding the ball, must be defined as an "attempt to stand," because only one knee is touching the floor. As noted in a previoss post - not mine - NCAA does not consider the player going from a position of both knees touching the floor, to a position of one knee touching the floor to be a travelling violation. The NFHS wording of the Case Book plays leaves that issue unaddressed. Some NFHS officials choose to apply the Case Book plays to that issue. I do not choose to do so. ![]()
__________________
To be good at a sport, one must be smart enough to play the game -- and dumb enough to think that it's important . . . ![]() |
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
The rule itself is quite clear....movement of the feet beyond what is listed as legal is traveling. Thus, lifting one knee and putting that food on the floor is traveling since there is nothing that says it is legal. Quote:
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
|
|||
Quote:
For the posture of a player standing erect, and securing or maintaining possession of the ball, with its varied aspects - standing on two feet, running, jumping, starting, stopping - the limits of foot/feet movements are somewhat covered in 4-44-5. And there are several Case Book plays that address specific applications of 4-44-1 thru 4. Indeed, without the statement of Case Book play 4.44.5 D, one might read 4-44-2 b. as allowing a player who has secured possession of the ball while one knee is touching the floor, and the other foot is also touching the floor, to have performed a legal movement: 4-44-2 "A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows: b. If one foot is on the floor: 1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step." However, as stated above, that rule deals with a player in an erect posture. Unfortunately, "securing possession of the ball while touching the floor with both knees" is omitted in the Case Book play under current discussion. In that posture, the threshold has sufficiently changed, so as to elicit a speciflc ruling/Case Book play. The principle of using Case Book plays to express the limitations of the Rules, in regards to specific actions, is inherent to the process of defining the parameters of rules applications. It is not uncommon that a Case Book statement ignores interpretation of a similar although sufficiently diverse situation. In some instances, one may lean to the general principle that "if it isn't illegal, it must be legal." And in other instances, one may adhere to the general principle that "if it isn't legal, it must be illegal." Many of the valuable discussions on this forum are the product of that process.
__________________
To be good at a sport, one must be smart enough to play the game -- and dumb enough to think that it's important . . . ![]() Last edited by Rob1968; Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 03:03am. |
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
Case plays, in general and specifically in this area, are not listing all the cases that are traveling. They're just describing some of the examples of what is traveling.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
|
|||
Quote:
I do recognize the arguments of both sides that allow more and allow less movement than this. And, like lots of other discussions we've had in the past, it won't be settled until FED / NCAA comes out with a case play / AR on this. |
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
To be good at a sport, one must be smart enough to play the game -- and dumb enough to think that it's important . . . ![]() |
|
|||
Quote:
Again, kneel on both knees. Now, get up without lifting a knee. I'm done.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith |
|
|||
Quote:
That the NCAA apparently recognizes that, is only to be noted as evidence that the two starting positions can be considered as divergent. My exhaustive explanation of the generally accepted differences of "kneeling - whether on one or both knees - and standing - whether on one or both feet" addresses your second point.
__________________
To be good at a sport, one must be smart enough to play the game -- and dumb enough to think that it's important . . . ![]() |
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
|
|||
Quote:
We can agree to disagree.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith |
|
|||
Quote:
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR |
|
|||
Quote:
The travel rules are actually pretty clear. If it isn't listed as legal, it is a travel.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
|
|||
That is some people's interpretation.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR |
|
|||
It isn't an interpretation...it is explicitly stated in black and white in the rule book.
Quote:
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
BYU Utah state breakaway foul followed by scrum vid request | Sharpshooternes | Basketball | 7 | Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:26am |
Injury During Rebound Scrum | Adam | Basketball | 19 | Fri Jan 31, 2014 01:56pm |
NCAA mechanics for a first down gained inbounds | jbduke | Football | 3 | Wed Oct 05, 2011 09:31am |
when is possession gained | wedickinson | Football | 8 | Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:32pm |
How to call the "rugby scrum" in the paint... | Sleeper | Basketball | 14 | Tue Dec 10, 2002 04:36pm |