Sitting a player down

[BDevil15]

Does an official have authority to require you to sit out a player for the remainder of a quarter because of something he doesn't like?

This weekend at a team camp the opposing team was full court man pressing after a dead ball and the guy guarding my PG was very physical before the inbounder even had the ball. My PG loves this because he gets to pretend he is a big man so he just holds his ground uses a armbar to create space and easily catches the inbound pass and is fouled. Prior to the ensuing inbound the same activity but the official tells my PG to put his elbows down and waits for him to comply. Then because my PG again created space with what I would have happily accepted as an offensive foul the official hits his whistle and insists that I sit my PG down. No foul just that I remove him from the game.

Of course I complied but it got me to thinking what would happen if I did not? Is there a rule that says that I must comply with an officials request to sit a kid simply because of barely physical play? I think I would much rather just have a ref call an offensive foul or two if he objected to the contact than to immediately bench my player.

[mtn335]

Of course we can't do that. If a player's style is too consistently rough or illegal, he will disqualify himself with five fouls; if it is sufficiently unsporting, violent, or otherwise unacceptable, he'll disqualify himself with two Ts or a flagrant/flagrant T. Otherwise, no, we can't do that.

ESPECIALLY in a summer league, call these fouls - what better time for kids to get the message, or officials to learn to penalize illegal contact?

[Nevadaref]

Depends upon the rules of the summer league.
Some don't track individual fouls, but give the officials the authority to remove a player from the contest for constantly fouling or being overly rough.

[crosscountry55]

No, an official cannot direct a player to sit for a prescribed length of time. He can:

A) penalize him for some kind of foul.
B) in certain circumstances, direct him to leave the game (and be substituted for) for refusing to comply with a direction ("tuck your shirt in" comes to mind). But even that action is only valid until the coach next has an opportunity to sub him back in (provided some amount of time has run off the clock).

I would totally, unequivocally choose option (A) in this case, specifically a personal (team control) foul.

Probably wise not to argue with the official in your situation, but a call to his assigner/commissioner or your league coordinator afterwards would be completely warranted.

NOTE: Nevada makes a good point. My assessment is strictly based on NFHS rules, but if league rules grant an official the kind of authority he mentioned, than the official is within his rights.

[OrStBballRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Depends upon the rules of the summer league.
Some don't track individual fouls, but give the officials the authority to remove a player from the contest for constantly fouling or being overly rough.

I've done this in summer league games where personal fouls aren't tracked. It can be a handy tool when the game gets out of control with no personal fouls.

During the actual season the rules don't allow for this. Closest I come to this during the season is a suggestion to a coach that said player may want to sit for a bit as he/she is crossing a line, but it's up to the coach whether they act on that advice.

[Raymond]

In summer camp, it can happen.

[TimTaylor]

As others have said we don't have the authority to "sit a player down" unless the specific league rules permit it. If the rules don't allow for it, then the best approach is to call the foul.

There have been situations where I have quietly told a coach that #xx was getting out of control and they needed to calm him/her down, and in almost every case the coach took care of it. The vast majority of coaches have been very cooperative in these situations.

However we do have other options if needed, depending on the situation.

Case in point - 4 years ago in a JVB regular season game: Home is up by 20 with about 1:30 left in Q4. Home has the ball and is passing it around the perimeter and as H2 at the elbow extended passes the ball back to H1, V2 comes charging up from the lower block on the lane line and violently pushes H2 off the court into the home bench.

I immediately came up with an intentional foul signal, quickly verified that H2 seemed to be OK then walked past the table telling them I would be with them in a second. I then approached the visiting HC and quietly told him that V2 was completely out of control (the kid had been getting more & more physical over the last couple minutes and calling fouls didn't stop him) and needed to come out of the game before someone really got hurt. The coach gave me a line of crap about it was nothing but good hard defense and he wanted to see more of it.

So I went to the reporting area, and reported a flagrant intentional foul on V2, which I had every justification in doing based on V2's actions. As a result, the kid was suspended and the school was fined. It was probably a mistake to give the coach a chance to handle it, and in hind sight if something like that ever happens again I'll more than likely just go straight to the flagrant.

Originally Posted by BDevil15

Does an official have authority to require you to sit out a player for the remainder of a quarter because of something he doesn't like?

No.

Buuut it's something that you might be able to get away with at lower levels and when used correctly could be effective.

[JRutledge]

I have done this several times during the summer when there is no other disqualification or even standard ejection or technical policy. It works well.

And if I am on the game, I will do whatever I see fit to get a game under control. Now if they wish to make this a problem, game over and problem solved.

Peace

[BDevil15]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if I am on the game, I will do whatever I see fit to get a game under control. Now if they wish to make this a problem, game over and problem solved.

Is this your god complex talking or can it be justified by a rule somewhere?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have done this several times during the summer when there is no other disqualification or even standard ejection or technical policy. It works well.

And if I am on the game, I will do whatever I see fit to get a game under control. Now if they wish to make this a problem, game over and problem solved.

Originally Posted by BDevil15

Is this your god complex talking or can it be justified by a rule somewhere?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Greatly amusing that a guy with only 23 posts picked up on that right away.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

As others have said we don't have the authority to "sit a player down" unless the specific league rules permit it. If the rules don't allow for it, then the best approach is to call the foul.

There have been situations where I have quietly told a coach that #xx was getting out of control and they needed to calm him/her down, and in almost every case the coach took care of it. The vast majority of coaches have been very cooperative in these situations.

However we do have other options if needed, depending on the situation.

Case in point - 4 years ago in a JVB regular season game: Home is up by 20 with about 1:30 left in Q4. Home has the ball and is passing it around the perimeter and as H2 at the elbow extended passes the ball back to H1, V2 comes charging up from the lower block on the lane line and violently pushes H2 off the court into the home bench.

I immediately came up with an intentional foul signal, quickly verified that H2 seemed to be OK then walked past the table telling them I would be with them in a second. I then approached the visiting HC and quietly told him that V2 was completely out of control (the kid had been getting more & more physical over the last couple minutes and calling fouls didn't stop him) and needed to come out of the game before someone really got hurt. The coach gave me a line of crap about it was nothing but good hard defense and he wanted to see more of it.

So I went to the reporting area, and reported a flagrant intentional foul on V2, which I had every justification in doing based on V2's actions. As a result, the kid was suspended and the school was fined. It was probably a mistake to give the coach a chance to handle it, and in hind sight if something like that ever happens again I'll more than likely just go straight to the flagrant.

1. When a player commits an act of violence, the proper penalty is a flagrant foul.
2. There is no such thing as a "flagrant intentional foul." A foul is either intentional or flagrant, but cannot be both.
3. Your last sentence is the correct way to handle this. (flagrant personal foul)

[APG]

Originally Posted by BDevil15

Is this your god complex talking or can it be justified by a rule somewhere?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Greatly amusing that a guy with only 23 posts picked up on that right away.

This statement was qualified under the assumption that it's a summer league game that doesn't keep track of fouls/DQ's/ejections, and you both damn well know it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BDevil15

Is this your god complex talking or can it be justified by a rule somewhere?

When you tell me what rules you apply to a summer league, then we can talk about what rules do or do not apply. At least where I am at, we do not apply most regular rules never apply.

And yes officials where I live can do just about anything they want in a summer league that is best for the game.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by APG

This statement was qualified under the assumption that it's a summer league game that doesn't keep track of fouls/DQ's/ejections you both damn well know it.

Teams during the summer do not have legal jerseys, but I guess some fool thinks we penalize those too by the rules?

Oh well.

Peace