Offensive Kicking?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Sometimes, during a loose ball and/or scrum, I observe a kick. Intentional? Not sure, but when the leg is in the air and the ball very obviously and noisily caroms in some random direction, it's hard not to put air in the whistle.

Then I notice the "kicker" was from the team in control. So we're going the other way, and I get a few incredulous looks from the bench. Like they didn't think it was possible for the offense to commit a kicking violation.

In truth, I admit it doesn't feel normal to call this violation on the team in control. Like it's not the intent of the rule. Anyone else ever experience this conundrum?

The committee has stated, clearly, that the intent of the rule is to make players play the ball with their hands. This isn't soccer.

That said, if you're not sure it was intentional, you may want to hold your whistle.

[Pantherdreams]

Scenarios then (beyond OP) which to you put air in the whistle on:

1) Player on the floor loses strack of the ball. Turns away from contact to try to stand up and back leg kicks the ball towards the sideline.

2) Defensively player running to close out. Offense tries the throw bounce pass to tight and hits running player in the foot. Kicks back to passer.

3) Defensively player in a stance. Offense tries to throw bounce pass and the defender sticks out leg kick save style to deflect ball to half?

4) Player is laying on back ball bounces off fingers and they stick their legs up in the air to stop the ball from going foward. Bounces off legs back into their possession?

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Scenarios then (beyond OP) which to you put air in the whistle on:

1) Player on the floor loses strack of the ball. Turns away from contact to try to stand up and back leg kicks the ball towards the sideline.

2) Defensively player running to close out. Offense tries the throw bounce pass to tight and hits running player in the foot. Kicks back to passer.

3) Defensively player in a stance. Offense tries to throw bounce pass and the defender sticks out leg kick save style to deflect ball to half?

4) Player is laying on back ball bounces off fingers and they stick their legs up in the air to stop the ball from going forward. Bounces off legs back into their possession?

Easy -

In #1 & #2 contact with leg was not intentional on the part of the player - no violation.
In #3 & #4 leg contacting ball was caused by intentional act of the player - violation in both cases.

The rule is really pretty simple and I don't see the controversy - any player that intentionally strikes the ball with any part of their leg has committed a violation.

[OKREF]

Yea, I don't see how this is confusing. Just because it's the offense doesn't mean they can't intentionally kick the ball. Just observe play if someone intentionally kicks it, blow the whistle

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Yea, I don't see how this is confusing. Just because it's the offense doesn't mean they can't intentionally kick the ball. Just observe play if someone intentionally kicks it, blow the whistle

It becomes confusing because someone gives a general guideline, and someone else takes it as the absolute rule (and repeats it, and it gets distorted in the retelling....)

With nothing meant about any poster in this thread. Just a general statement.

[kstiles99]

Kicked ball violations can be called on any of the players in the game.. Offense and defense. And might I add.. I've never seen an offensive player get called for this in upper ranks (ncaa and nba). And the only kicked balls I've seen called are when an offensive player throws the ball at a defenders foot.. So it isn't even a true violation.

Might I add.. Just for help with future situations-
(Mainly for new referees)

Kicked ball violation: Any INTENTIONAL contact with the ball by ANY players FOOT or ANY PART OF THE LEG.

I say this because it doesn't matter if offense or defense kicks it. If it's intentional leg contact- violation. If it's a loose ball (no team control) and contact is {INTENTIONAL}- kicked ball violation. It really helps to keep this in mind.

I've had situations where players have grabbed the ball with their feet and moved it away while on their backs. No kick.. But still a kicked ball violation.

Again- for new referees or anyone who wants to know my personal helper:

If you're not sure- ask yourself "was it intentional leg or foot contact?"

[Pantherdreams]

Violation is pretty clear and easy to get.

HOWEVER . . . we'ev all worked with those people and for new officials if you work with those guys often and early you can develop bad habits. I had a partner my first couple of years who wouldn't call violations like (kick ball, travels, illegal dribbles) unless they were balatant. I mean unless the player drop kicked the ball like a punter he would insist that it wasn't intentional.

Violations may not be the sexiest calls in the game and I know that a lot people here would espouse that you dont' want travelling to be your best call. All that said if you consistently and effecively get your violations as an official, the game cleans up and slows down (either literally or figuratively as you get better at seeing things at pace) to make it easier for you to officiate.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Adam

The committee has stated, clearly, that the intent of the rule is to make players play the ball with their hands. This isn't soccer.

And in both sports, it's only an infraction when it's done DELIBERATELY. There are a lot of parellels between both sports in this area.

For example, in basketball, if A-1 looks to pass the ball past B-2, B-2 jumps, and the pass hits the ball in his leg, we generally have a kicking violation here. The leg motion may not be toward the ball, but the defender has, in essence, made himself bigger, and caused the kicking act. The same goes in soccer: if a defender puts his arms out to stop a pass ("making himself bigger"), it's a handling foul.

Another parallel: People will incorrectly cry for an whistle immediately when a basketball touches a foot or a soccer ball touches a hand.

To the OP's point, the most common "offensive" kicking violation I see is the rare instance when loose ball that a player tries to secure on the floor, between his thighs.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

For example, in basketball, if A-1 looks to pass the ball past B-2, B-2 jumps, and the pass hits the ball in his leg, we generally have a kicking violation here. The leg motion may not be toward the ball, but the defender has, in essence, made himself bigger, and caused the kicking act.

I'd only agree with that IF, by jumping, you mean that the player stuck a leg out to the side while jumping...which is not a natural part of the jumping movement. Jumping up alone with not be a kick in my games.

To me, it isn't about the leg moving toward the ball but moving or being into the path of the ball such that it is not a natural part some other movement (e.g., running, shifting, etc.).