Ask a Ref: Pivot Foot & Traveling (Video)

[meddie24]

I understand the game, been reading various rule books to check, but I continue to watch players do specific things on the court and need some clarification.

Any help thank you ... sorry if example is long.

EXAMPLE: The offensive post catches a pass from the top of the key, their placement is a three to four steps below the FT line. When they catch the pass with both feet on the floor, their back is to the basket, defender behind them.

They now have the ability to choose their pivot foot. Imagine they left forward pivot (their left foot is their pivot foot now, right foot is free to move) and they are now facing the basket. They shot fake and plan to go to the left of the defender still in front of them.

Facing basket still they do an "Up and Under". They move their right foot to their left side, which is to the right of the defender who is facing them. The right foot hits the ground and they now lift their left foot off the ground (pivot foot) and shoot the left handed layup.

Final Shot would be right foot on ground, left foot off the ground, all pushing their movement forward and toward the basket.

Primary example is Morgan Tuck from Uconn, she is constantly doing this up and under move. No travel? Video example at 1:55 mark HERE

Another Video of Tuck HERE at 1:45 mark. Looks like she may have traveled to start her drive but its the finish where my question comes into play. It's close but always looks like she lifts that pivot foot before the ball leaves her hand.

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My question is how is this not a travel? No dribble was used, I understand that, and you could just say they dribbled once when the originally forward pivoted still having right foot free, left foot pivot.

When they Up and Under and step to the left with the right foot aren't they traveling the moment they lift that left foot because the ball is still in their hand? The ball doesn't actually leave their hand until they are moving towards the upward motion on their newly planted right foot towards the left handed layup.

If this isn't a layup, then couldn't a guard catch the ball on the three point line. Never dribble but after a couple seconds take a step to the right with the right foot, lifting the back foot lunging themselves forward and before the left foot touches down again shoot the ball? Instead of a normal shot, both feet leaving ground at same time they are taking stepping shot without a dribble to bring their forward motion.

A better example is the Jordan and Kobe turn around jumper. They turn themselves to shoot but lift off both feet, they don't perform some weird step back style shot off the back foot, which is utilized off the dribble. But again they are in a non-dribble situation where they have their pivot foot and are leaving off both feet, not lifting the pivot foot to gain distance and vertical off the opposite planted foot.

Sorry if none of that made sense... hope you get what I am asking.

Thanks to anyone who read all that and helps ... I won't even bring up Lebron's three steps or massive push off every time to the basket.

[APG]

Originally Posted by meddie24

When they Up and Under and step to the left with the right foot aren't they traveling the moment they lift that left foot because the ball is still in their hand? The ball doesn't actually leave their hand until they are moving towards the upward motion on their newly planted right foot towards the left handed layup.

It's only a travel to lift the pivot and fail to pass or shoot the ball before the pivot foot returns to the floor. The lifting of the pivot foot is nothing in of itself. If what you thought was true, you would never have a lay up.

[meddie24]

As absurd as my next statement may sound ... that would mean I could catch the ball at the 3pt line and dribble to my right, stop. Pivot foot left, free foot right. I could then take a step to my right on my right foot and hold my left foot in the air "forever" and not have traveled?

And four seconds later, left foot still in the air, i then shoot the ball or pass to a teammate and put my left foot on the ground... all good?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by meddie24

As absurd as my next state may sound ... that would mean I could catch the ball at the 3pt line and dribble to my right, stop. Pivot foot left, free foot right. I could then take a step to my right on my right foot and hold my left foot in the air "forever" and not have traveled?

Yes, that is correct. The travel occurs when the pivot foot comes back down.

Originally Posted by meddie24

And four seconds later, left foot still in the air, i then shoot the ball or pass to a teammate and put my left foot on the ground... all good?

Yep....even 5 minutes later (assuming you're not closely guarded or in the lane).

You could also call timeout.

[meddie24]

Well thanks for answering ... but doesn't this seem a little strange?

I can't see me every teaching that to a kid ... unless I wanted to simply see what a ref would do in the game when it happened.

And again this is the rule across the board, correct? HS - College - Pro

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by meddie24

Well thanks for answering ... but doesn't this seem a little strange?

I can't see me every teaching that to a kid ... unless I wanted to simply see what a ref would do in the game when it happened.

And again this is the rule across the board, correct? HS - College - Pro

If this play were a travel (step to the non-pivot, lift the pivot), it would be impossible to execute a layup.

The would be legal in all rule sets. The pro rules do allow more foot movement than HS or college in some cases but this is the same.

[meddie24]

I completely get that, but the easiest way around it and why it looks so funny and may be confusing is because the layup is coming off the forward motion of the dribble instead of the stationary position of the individual pivoting.

Again, I just think a HS ref. would call a travel if the kid caught the ball at the 3pt line and after 3-4 seconds took a one footed super jump with no dribble inward and then leaping off that first landed foot towards the basket tossed the ball towards the hoop before the second foot ever had the chance to touch the ground again.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by meddie24

I completely get that, but the easiest way around it and why it looks so funny and may be confusing is because the layup is coming off the forward motion of the dribble instead of the stationary position of the individual pivoting.

The speed, direction, and pace of the steps is not a factor in the traveling rules

Originally Posted by meddie24

Again, I just think a HS ref. would call a travel if the kid caught the ball at the 3pt line and after 3-4 seconds took a one footed super jump with no dribble inward and then leaping off that first landed foot towards the basket tossed the ball towards the hoop before the second foot ever had the chance to touch the ground again.

You've changed the play.....with one exception a leap (jump) and landing even on one foot is a travel. The movement to the non-pivot foot has to be a step, not a jump.

Assuming it is a step, that official would be incorrect. It is awkward looking but it is upon the official to know the rules, know what the pivot foot is, and apply the rules to it correctly.

[meddie24]

are their specific definitions of what is defined as a step and a leap? At what point does my step turn into a leap, how much distance, how much forward motion, does speed come into play?

One man's step is another man's leap.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by meddie24

are their specific definitions of what is defined as a step and a leap? At what point does my step turn into a leap, how much distance, how much forward motion, does speed come into play?

One man's step is another man's leap.

Judgment. A player who pushes the boundary on this risks getting called for traveling.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by meddie24

Again, I just think a HS ref. would call a travel if the kid caught the ball at the 3pt line and after 3-4 seconds took a one footed super jump with no dribble inward and then leaping off that first landed foot towards the basket tossed the ball towards the hoop before the second foot ever had the chance to touch the ground again.

I disagree with Camron on this (if I am reading it correctly). I have it as legal.

And the rest of the questions you ask are all typical of fans / coaches / players who do not understand that, in general, traveling is lifting the pivot foot an returning it to the floor. All the other statements you make about location, whether the player moves right then left, spinning completely around, are just overthinking it.

[meddie24]

I give direction, position, and movement simply to illustrate a specific move by a player to make it easier to understand what I am asking.

I fully understand what all of you are saying about the pivot foot needing to return to the ground after it being lifted off the ground to be called a 'travel'. I would have to assume this is one of the least understood rules then by the 'non-referre' general public to include the people coaching, teaching, and actually playing the game.

I also believe a good amount of referees do not fully understand or call this correctly in games.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I disagree with Camron on this (if I am reading it correctly). I have it as legal.

I see no part of the travel that allows for a player, while holding the ball, to legally jump and land aside from the 2-footed jump stop.

In the play presented, the player caught the ball while on the floor. It doesn't say whether it was on one foot or two feet.

If it was with both feet on the floor, there is no legal way for the player to jump and return to the floor. When the player jumps from both feet, one of the feet would be considered the pivot foot (think that is in a case play) and...

If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

If the player caught the ball with one foot on the floor, the player could jump, but would have to land with both feet simultaneously for it to be legal and landing on one foot is not landing on both simultaneously.

If one foot is on the floor:
It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

Am I missing something or are we just seeing the play differently?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I see no part of the travel that allows for a player, while holding the ball, to legally jump and land aside from the 2-footed jump stop.

In the play presented, the player caught the ball while on the floor. It doesn't say whether it was on one foot or two feet.

If it was with both feet on the floor, there is no legal way for the player to jump and return to the floor. When the player jumps from both feet, one of the feet would be considered the pivot foot (think that is in a case play) and...

I read it as: catches ball with both feet on the floor. Lifts one foot, jumps / leaps off the other, lands on the first foot only, jumps / leaps off that first foot and shoots the ball while in the air.

Basically, a "really long lay up"

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I read it as: catches ball with both feet on the floor. Lifts one foot, jumps / leaps off the other, lands on the first foot only, jumps / leaps off that first foot and shoots the ball while in the air.

Basically, a "really long lay up"

That would be a travel per the rule I cited, if they jump. If they take a long step, legal.