Wisconsin vs. Duke - National Championship - Master Thread

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Out of all the calls all night, I hated this call. To me the Duke player shoved his shoulder and caused the Wisconsin player to "bow" and IMO this should have been a no call.

I'm with ya JRut. I think players at this level should be expected to play through that amount of arms.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by parrot

Yeah, there's no way that two out of bounds calls going the wrong way down the stretch of a 5 point game had any impact on the game.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you're dismissing the other 37 minutes of the game, as if they don't matter.

It's a pet peeve of mine that people make a bigger deal out of a play just because it happened with a minute left in the game. Scoring, or preventing the other team to score, is just as important in the first minute of the game as the last minute.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

It's a pet peeve of mine that people make a bigger deal out of a play just because it happened with a minute left in the game. Scoring, or preventing the other team to score, is just as important in the first minute of the game as the last minute.

Without giving credence to other comments that have been made, a bad call late in the game does have more of an impact than one that occurs early in the game. The theory is that teams have more ability to overcome that mistake with more time. This diminishes as the clock winds down.

Don't interpret my comments to mean that I agree with parrot. I don't; and I don't think the officiating impacted this game.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

Without giving credence to other comments that have been made, a bad call late in the game does have more of an impact than one that occurs early in the game. The theory is that teams have more ability to overcome that mistake with more time. This diminishes as the clock winds down.

Don't interpret my comments to mean that I agree with parrot. I don't; and I don't think the officiating impacted this game.

I agree, but it's never looked at in that way.

[Jesse James]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The problem with this line of thinking is that you're dismissing the other 37 minutes of the game, as if they don't matter.

It's a pet peeve of mine that people make a bigger deal out of a play just because it happened with a minute left in the game. Scoring, or preventing the other team to score, is just as important in the first minute of the game as the last minute.

If a team gets a couple of bad calls in the first two minutes, they've got 38 more to suck it up. Couple of bad calls down the stretch don't afford the same recovery period.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Jesse James

If a team gets a couple of bad calls in the first two minutes, they've got 38 more to suck it up. Couple of bad calls down the stretch don't afford the same recovery period.

I'm not going to argue this, as it's taking away from the topic of this thread, and I'm simply not interested in doing so.

Like I said... I agree, but that's not how most people look at it.

[JRutledge]

Oakafor had 2 fouls against him and sat for several minutes in the 1st half where if those calls were not made, the outcome might have been different. So if we disputed those 2 calls, would that have been a difference?

I still think when people act like an out of bounds call affected an outcome in a game, that is sad. Because without the replay, no one would have noticed how close that call was in the end.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I agree, but it's never looked at in that way.

It's look at that way by all college supervisors, and probably a good number of HS assignors.

As officials we are expected to be at peak concentration in the last 2-5 minutes of a game. The challenge is raising our level of concentration to those heights during the rest of the game.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Old School? well, they passed on a "force out" moments before on Winslow stepping on baseline

That was my take on the play as well.

As it happened live, I thought a.) "Where the hell is Winslow going?" (a constant thought), then b.) "It sure looks like Hayes is pushing him pretty consistently with an arm bar."

So when the replay arrived showing him stepping on the end line, I thought, "It's a wash." Non-factor.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ODog

Agree, and I like your way of putting it. His arms were forced into being not so vertical. Winslow not only bulled his way directly into the chest of a legal defender, he shoved him with the ball too, even if much more subtly than Sabonis in the Elite 8.

And because the result went in his favor, Winslow figured he'd go a step further and literally run right through and over a legal defender (Dukan) in the second half ... and he got the call then, too!

I have to agree. Neither of these were quality calls.

[sosinsurr]

NCAA Head of Officials John Adams on how title game refs missed the controversial out-of-bounds call:

https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmcolle...medium=twitter

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

That block call is the same call DeRosa made at the end of the UK-ND game.

At least I'm consistent. I wrote that Derosa wrongly called a block on that ND defender in our thread on that game. What saved him in the uneducated public eye is that there was significant left to right movement by the ND defender, which would have actually made this a blocking foul had the offensive player gone airborne prior to the contact. That was not the case for the Wisconsin defender. He simply got knocked straight backward.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Full disclosure:

1) Kansas is always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) my first choice to win in my pools because my Mother graduated from Kansas.

2) Duke is always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) my second choice to win in my pools because one if my H.S. teammates started for Duke from 1972-75.

3) Maryland is always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) my third choice to win in my pools because a basketball letterman from my H.S. (everybody who played basketball for our H.S. basketball coach from 1951 to 1971 consider themselves a member of a fraternity of sorts) started for Maryland from 1963-66.

But I thought that this was a tossup game and both teams would be worthy champions.

And it should be remembered that Lucas Oil Stadium has not been good to Wisconsin in championship games. The last time a Wisconsin team played a championship game in Lucas Oil Stadium it didn't score a point.


That said:

1) I was surprised that the out of bounds call with just under two minutes in the game was not overturned.

2) The uproar over not calling a FF1 against the Duke player in the first half. In my opinion it was a FF1 but as I read the rules replay could not have been used because not foul was called in the first place. And from the TV angle as the play happened it was difficult to see the contact and I don't know if either of the officials would have been able to see it.

3) I was surprised at the number of charges that were called blocks. These were calls that I would have expected H.S. officials with at least two years of experience would have been able to correctly call. I thought that there were about four calls that were called blocks that were charges and there were no excuses for them to be called anything but charges. And everybody knows my position about guarding and screening.

I am taking about no more than six plays out of the hundreds of yes/no decisions that the officials had to make. Therefore, I thought the game was well officiated, just a tad bit too much contact in the paint for my taste but I still think the officials did a good job.

MTD, Sr.

[Kansas Ref]

*You pretty much see the same types of "missed calls" (e.g., missing the oob on duke) and "suspect calls" (e.g., calling a block against LGP’d defensive player) made by refs who officiate 8th grade girls games as you do in these primo games. Despite those refs being regarded as “top level”, they are prone to the same lapses in judgment, erroneous calls, and missed calls that inhere with all refs.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by sosinsurr

NCAA Head of Officials John Adams on how title game refs missed the controversial out-of-bounds call:

https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmcolle...medium=twitter

Great post! Thanks.
Honest answers by John Adams.
He confirms that the game officials did not see the definitive replay which we got watching on TV. That's a failure of the system and DVsports should lose the contract over that.
Huge item revealed by Adams that he saw the definitive replay in time to go to the table and summon the officials back to view that before restarting play, but elected not to get involved. I can see merit in both positions--for the coordinator to get involved or not. Personally, I would have held up play and had the guys come look at every replay available, especially if I knew that there was an important one which they hadn't seen. I would have done so because of the intense scrutiny that these officials receive in the media and from the spectating public. I would feel that it is my duty to protect my guys by giving them every possible opportunity to get a very important play right and avoid some of the criticism. I don't agree with sitting back and doing nothing while knowing that your guys are going to get ripped for something when you can prevent it and eliminate the coming public outcry. When weighing whether to intervene or not, I think that the leader of NCAA officiating should take the side of getting the correct decision for the integrity of the game. He wouldn't be actually making the call, just providing the opportunity for the crew to see/have more/necessary information.