Gonzaga vs Duke Push with ball (Video)

[Rich]

I saw the play. I'd call that a foul every time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

I saw the play. I'd call that a foul every time.

As would I. But on a written test, I'm not sure how I would answer it? Probably a personal foul, but I would lose sleep until I got the test graded. Especially if the question stated that the official charged a technical foul, followed by the question, "Was the official correct?". IAABO Refresher Exams are known to have a few odd questions, and a few odd answers, each year.

Before I joined the Forum, ten years ago, I would have called this a personal foul in a New York minute, but threads regarding this situation have made me question whether, or not, the written rule matches the situation exactly.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

As would I. But on a written test, I'm not sure how I would answer it? Probably a personal foul, but I would lose sleep until I got the test graded. Especially if the question stated that the official charged a technical foul, followed by the question, "Was the official correct?". IAABO Refresher Exams are known to have a few odd questions, and a few odd answers, each year.



Before I joined the Forum, ten years ago, I would have called this a personal foul in a New York minute, but threads regarding this situation have made me question whether, or not, the written rule matches the situation exactly.

We're able to get 10 wrong on a test. I wouldn't sweat this one.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ODog]

Originally Posted by rich

i saw the play. I'd call that a foul every time.

+1

[deecee]

Using the ball as you own personal mechanism to displace an opponent may not be specifically spelled out in the rule book for some folks on here but here is a spot where common sense should kick in.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

I saw the play. I'd call that a foul every time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by BillyMac

As would I. But on a written test, I'm not sure how I would answer it? Probably a personal foul, but I would lose sleep until I got the test graded. Especially if the question stated that the official charged a technical foul, followed by the question, "Was the official correct?". IAABO Refresher Exams are known to have a few odd questions, and a few odd answers, each year.

Before I joined the Forum, ten years ago, I would have called this a personal foul in a New York minute, but threads regarding this situation have made me question whether, or not, the written rule matches the situation exactly.

Originally Posted by deecee

Using the ball as you own personal mechanism to displace an opponent may not be specifically spelled out in the rule book for some folks on here but here is a spot where common sense should kick in.

I did not see the play in question (was attending a mandatory OhioASA umpires meeting), but I am in agreement with the above, this is a PCF each and every time at the very least.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

I am not calling a PC foul with the ball when I can knock the ball out of your hand or grab the ball. The only way I would call something it would have to be a technical for using the ball in an unsporting fashion.

Peace

[Pantherdreams]

Like most things I assume this is a learned behaviour. I doubt a college freshmen who's played all over the world got stressed and suddenly in a moment of desperate improvisation thought "I'll push him with the ball and see what happens!"

If he's doing it he's done it before. If it has consistently been called a foul before he probably wouldn't be doing it now and at this level. That would tend to imply that there are a lot of officials who do not see it as a foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Like most things I assume this is a learned behaviour. I doubt a college freshmen who's played all over the world got stressed and suddenly in a moment of desperate improvisation thought "I'll push him with the ball and see what happens!"

If he's doing it he's done it before. If it has consistently been called a foul before he probably wouldn't be doing it now and at this level. That would tend to imply that there are a lot of officials who do not see it as a foul.

I have never seen anyone expose the ball like that by using it and bringing it to a defender so they can easily steal it. If it is taught, there are not many defenders smart enough to realize he just gave a better opportunity to take the ball.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd call that a foul every time.

Originally Posted by deecee

Using the ball as you own personal mechanism to displace an opponent may not be specifically spelled out in the rule book for some folks on here but here is a spot where common sense should kick in.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

... consistently been called a foul before he probably wouldn't be doing it now and at this level. That would tend to imply that there are a lot of officials who do not see it as a foul.

For most (maybe not all) of us, it's not a matter of calling, or not calling a foul, it's a matter of calling a personal foul (player control foul), or a technical foul? There are differences in the penalty for each type that makes this matter.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The only way I would call something it would have to be a technical for using the ball in an unsporting fashion.

Sounds good, but so does the personal foul option. JRutledge's technical foul is probably more rule based, and would certainly be easier to explain to a coach, athletic director, or an assigner, since it's right there in the rulebook in black, and white.

Edit: Or is it? See below:

[BillyMac]

4-19-1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with
an opponent while the ball is live ...

4-19-5: A technical foul is:
b. A noncontact foul by a player.
c. An intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead ...

4-19-14: An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists
of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Is "ball to opponent" interpreted as contact? I would think so.

Unsporting? Probably not because it must be noncontact.

Technical? Probably not because it must be noncontact, and if deemed flagrant, or intentional, the ball must be dead.

It probably comes down to how one defines contact. Must it be player to player contact, or can it be ball to player contact?

Based on how one defines contact determines whether one should charge a personal foul, or a technical foul.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by deecee

Using the ball as you own personal mechanism to displace an opponent may not be specifically spelled out in the rule book for some folks on here but here is a spot where common sense should kick in.

And as these responses prove, common sense doesn't always kick in. Here the official calls a player control foul which no one questions. The game continues smoothly. Imagine no calling that play and then saying to the coach it's a no call because he used to "ball" to push off. The game does not continue smoothly.

You can say that I'm ignoring the rule, but I am following the spirit of the rule.

Originally Posted by Jay R

And as these responses prove, common sense doesn't always kick in. Here the official calls a player control foul which no one questions. The game continues smoothly. Imagine no calling that play and then saying to the coach it's a no call because he used to "ball" to push off. The game does not continue smoothly.

You can say that I'm ignoring the rule, but I am following the spirit of the rule.

100% agree. I had a play this year that would have been a blocking foul had the ball not been between the players. I no called it and my game did not continue smoothly.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

100% agree. I had a play this year that would have been a blocking foul had the ball not been between the players. I no called it and my game did not continue smoothly.

So you feel as if you should have called a block even though the contact was with the ball?