Exactly when does ball become dead?

[letemplay]

Saw this play happen last night in high school playoff game..don't think I've seen it before or if it can actually happen:
B1 sets up to take a charge on hard driving A1 coming down right side of lane. Prior to contact, A1 dishes across lane to A2, then A1 drills B1 and we have a whistle and a block signal given by official on play. Meanwhile, A2 has received the pass and shot and scored. Officials count the basket, but give the foul to B1, and the ball back oob to Team A.

I can see this as a possibility if A1 takes several steps after passing the ball, so that the contact occurred after or at same time of A2's release. But on what I'd describe as a bang-bang play, how can there be enough time to complete a pass of about 15' across lane, and a catch and a shot? By this logic, if A1 had been guilty of a PC foul here, wouldn't we without question waive off the basket? Does ball become dead on the contact (foul) itself, or not until whistle? A late whistle could have also added to the problem here as the L and C were withholding momentarily.

6-7-5 (and certain applicable exceptions therein) seems to be referring only to fouls on the shooter. Is this really no different than a play where a foul occurs by the defense away from the ball, at same time another player is in act of shooting? Whole thing just didn't seem right.

[bob jenkins]

If the foul is on the defense, and BEFORE the try has started (some use the word "gather'), then the ball is dead and the try does not count.

If the foul is on the defense and AFTER the try has started, then the offense is allowed to complete normal motions associated with the try. It doesn't matter that the foul was against a player other than the shooter.

If the foul is on the offense and BEFORE the ball has been RELEASED, then the ball is dead and the try does not count.

If the foul is on the offense and AFTER the ball has been RELEASED, then the try counts, unless this was a PC foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

...

What he said.

[letemplay]

Is a player that has left his feet and passed, still considered to be in player control until returns to floor?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Is a player that has left his feet and passed, still considered to be in player control until returns to floor?

Of course not.

To have PC, you have to be holding or dribbling the ball.

Note that an airborne shooter also does not have PC, but can commit a PC foul.

[letemplay]

My point of question exactly. Can an airborne passer commit a PC foul?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by letemplay

My point of question exactly. Can an airborne passer commit a PC foul?

Not a PC foul, but a TC foul, which is treated exactly the same unless a shot is already in flight. A TC foul doesn't make an in-flight try dead where PC foul does.

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by letemplay

My point of question exactly. Can an airborne passer commit a PC foul?

No, but he can commit a team control foul, which would cause the ball to become dead immediately.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not a PC foul, but a TC foul, which is treated exactly the same unless a shot is already in flight. A TC foul doesn't make an in-flight try dead where PC foul does.

I'm sure you know this and mistyped etc...If a try is in-flight there is no TC. If the passer A1 fouls/runs over B1, after A2 has released the ball on a try, the foul is not a TC foul. Basket counts if good..if B is in bonus go down to other end and shoot. thx

[letemplay]

IMO, the whole thing boils down to judgment (imagine) as to whether the shot was in motion at time of foul. In a case of "had to be there" for you guys, I was, and don't see how it was realistically possible for A2 to wait for the pass to arrive, catch/control, and go into a shooting motion, in the time between the release of the pass by airborne A1 and A1's immediate contact with B1.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'm sure you know this and mistyped etc...If a try is in-flight there is no TC. If the passer A1 fouls/runs over B1, after A2 has released the ball on a try, the foul is not a TC foul. Basket counts if good..if B is in bonus go down to other end and shoot. thx

Correct. Typing faster that I should. Was thinking of the OP where the passer dumped the ball to a shooter who had released the shot then committed a foul after the shot was released. That is indeed not a TC foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by letemplay

IMO, the whole thing boils down to judgment (imagine) as to whether the shot was in motion at time of foul. In a case of "had to be there" for you guys, I was, and don't see how it was realistically possible for A2 to wait for the pass to arrive, catch/control, and go into a shooting motion, in the time between the release of the pass by airborne A1 and A1's immediate contact with B1.

I agree it is improbable, we're just covering the possibilities.

[johnny d]

The ball becomes dead when a doctor or coroner pronounces it dead.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the foul is on the defense, and BEFORE the try has started (some use the word "gather'), then the ball is dead and the try does not count.

If the foul is on the defense and AFTER the try has started, then the offense is allowed to complete normal motions associated with the try. It doesn't matter that the foul was against a player other than the shooter.

If the foul is on the offense and BEFORE the ball has been RELEASED, then the ball is dead and the try does not count.

If the foul is on the offense and AFTER the ball has been RELEASED, then the try counts, unless this was a PC foul.

Partners need to bring help on the timing of the other elements in this play.

[letemplay]

Yes, I certainly see where it could be possible, however unlikely on this particular play.