Coaches on Sidelines Who "Need a Get Back Coach"

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Adam

Why are you giving three warnings? And what is an "official warning?"

While I'm not a big fan of this thread (I'm a softy like Rich), I do want to address the "official warning" for those that have inquired. You won't find it in the rule book, but after subtle and/or private dealings with the HC prove fruitless and their behavior starts to grind on the crew, you stop the game and issue an "official warning." This is done openly and verbally so that the coach, the table and your partner all know what's up. After I'm done with the coach, for example, I turn to the table and say loudly, "This coach has been warned." Some college assignors even mandate a footnote in the book when this is done. Bottom line, it's a last chance for the coach to recognize he's out of rope, and it helps you CYA if you have to whack him later, because it's not like everyone in the gym won't have seen it coming.

Another tool for your kit. Lots of times coaches enjoy finding out what your threshold is, so this kind of public reprimand without penalizing satisfies them and shuts them up. Often very effective.

[Rich1]

While I have been trained that actually putting it in the book is an effective tool, I have seldom done it. By "official" I meant a more formal warning to put the coach (and entire gym) on notice that he's crossing that line. I try to be very patient but do have my limits. Going from friendly, to informal, to formal, gives the coach every opportunity to correct borderline behavior before getting the punishment.

[JRutledge]

If I have to avoid a coach on a basketball court by them being on the court, the only option is me giving them a T. For one it is for my safety as well as the safety of the players that might run into them. I will do everything to tell them to move back, but I am not babysitting. They know the darn rule and we have a rule that is highly expected to be enforced around here. I will be supported just by giving a T if I have to go through all of that drama.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If I have to avoid a coach on a basketball court by them being on the court, the only option is me giving them a T. For one it is for my safety as well as the safety of the players that might run into them. I will do everything to tell them to move back, but I am not babysitting. They know the darn rule and we have a rule that is highly expected to be enforced around here. I will be supported just by giving a T if I have to go through all of that drama.

Peace

So many courts have no room on the sidelines and the benches are right up against the court -- they just aren't well constructed for 3-person mechanics. If I'm the C, I want to be out of bounds 90% of the time, on the sideline. That's also in the middle of the coaching box. I'm happy to share.

One coach moved me once and I would've been well within my rights to whack him, but I didn't sense anything malicious so I told him that he gets to move me only if I get to move him if I need to. He laughed, I laughed.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

So many courts have no room on the sidelines and the benches are right up against the court -- they just aren't well constructed for 3-person mechanics. If I'm the C, I want to be out of bounds 90% of the time, on the sideline. That's also in the middle of the coaching box. I'm happy to share.

One coach moved me once and I would've been well within my rights to whack him, but I didn't sense anything malicious so I told him that he gets to move me only if I get to move him if I need to. He laughed, I laughed.

There are a lot of gyms here or the newer ones have more than enough room for benches and coaches. Maybe 15 years ago I could totally agree with that assessment, but that is not so much the case anymore. And I am not nitpicking a coach's shoes over the line either. I am just not going to do a lot to avoid a coach.

I also do not need to be out of bounds, especially in 3 person mechanics at the C. The ball is usually on the other side of the court at that time so I cannot think of why I would need to be out of bounds. If I am T, I am almost always on the court, so this is not much of an issue for me.

Peace

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are a lot of gyms here or the newer ones have more than enough room for benches and coaches. Maybe 15 years ago I could totally agree with that assessment, but that is not so much the case anymore. And I am not nitpicking a coach's shoes over the line either. I am just not going to do a lot to avoid a coach.

I also do not need to be out of bounds, especially in 3 person mechanics at the C. The ball is usually on the other side of the court at that time so I cannot think of why I would need to be out of bounds. If I am T, I am almost always on the court, so this is not much of an issue for me.

Peace

WRT C positioning, I agree. I used to think OOB was the place to be, but then a JOCO conference commissioner critiqued me and said, "don't run up and down OOB, because quite frankly that's how you'll get hurt, and I don't want my officials getting hurt." So I asked him, "what if the play swings right over to where you are?" He said, "then it's ok to step off briefly to get the angle you need and/or stay out of the way, but then get right back on the floor." It all made good sense.

WRT benches, is it just me or has anyone else lately noticed that when you come to a gym with chairs and plenty of room behind them, the chairs are nonetheless invariably within the painted strip and maybe ~18 inches from the sideline. Makes inbounding the ball in one of those spots a pain in the arse. Seems like a trend in my area. Does anyone ever ask the game manager to have the chairs moved back, or would this be considered taboo?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

WRT C positioning, I agree. I used to think OOB was the place to be, but then a JOCO conference commissioner critiqued me and said, "don't run up and down OOB, because quite frankly that's how you'll get hurt, and I don't want my officials getting hurt." So I asked him, "what if the play swings right over to where you are?" He said, "then it's ok to step off briefly to get the angle you need and/or stay out of the way, but then get right back on the floor." It all made good sense.

WRT benches, is it just me or has anyone else lately noticed that when you come to a gym with chairs and plenty of room behind them, the chairs are nonetheless invariably within the painted strip and maybe ~18 inches from the sideline. Makes inbounding the ball in one of those spots a pain in the arse. Seems like a trend in my area. Does anyone ever ask the game manager to have the chairs moved back, or would this be considered taboo?

I've seen this many times -- the chairs are placed in relation to the court. I haven't asked to move any...yet.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

WRT C positioning, I agree. I used to think OOB was the place to be, but then a JOCO conference commissioner critiqued me and said, "don't run up and down OOB, because quite frankly that's how you'll get hurt, and I don't want my officials getting hurt." So I asked him, "what if the play swings right over to where you are?" He said, "then it's ok to step off briefly to get the angle you need and/or stay out of the way, but then get right back on the floor." It all made good sense.

WRT benches, is it just me or has anyone else lately noticed that when you come to a gym with chairs and plenty of room behind them, the chairs are nonetheless invariably within the painted strip and maybe ~18 inches from the sideline. Makes inbounding the ball in one of those spots a pain in the arse. Seems like a trend in my area. Does anyone ever ask the game manager to have the chairs moved back, or would this be considered taboo?

I'll move chairs that are too close to the scorer's table.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

While I'm not a big fan of this thread (I'm a softy like Rich), I do want to address the "official warning" for those that have inquired. You won't find it in the rule book, but after subtle and/or private dealings with the HC prove fruitless and their behavior starts to grind on the crew, you stop the game and issue an "official warning." This is done openly and verbally so that the coach, the table and your partner all know what's up. After I'm done with the coach, for example, I turn to the table and say loudly, "This coach has been warned." Some college assignors even mandate a footnote in the book when this is done. Bottom line, it's a last chance for the coach to recognize he's out of rope, and it helps you CYA if you have to whack him later, because it's not like everyone in the gym won't have seen it coming.

Another tool for your kit. Lots of times coaches enjoy finding out what your threshold is, so this kind of public reprimand without penalizing satisfies them and shuts them up. Often very effective.

Unless mandated to do so, I'd avoid this.

1. This sets coaches up to think the warning is necessary. It's not.
2. I prefer to warn the coach quietly rather than showing him up in front of the entire gym. We don't want him showing us up, so I try to extend the same courtesy. There are plenty of opportunities to update my partners. We pregame this, if one of us warns the coach, let the others know so he doesn't end up getting three warnings.
3. I'm not worrying about covering my ass. Every T here comes with a report that takes about 10 minutes (at most). My report is sufficient CYA.
4. I've generally had more success with the private chat than the public reprimand. I've had quite a few private chats that result in the coach admitting, "I'm just trying to get what I can." I normally respond with, "I know, Bill."
5. A quiet "coach, I've heard you, we need to move on" is most effective for me. The coach knows he's got to stop, and if he doesn't, we'll shoot some free throws.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

While I'm not a big fan of this thread (I'm a softy like Rich), I do want to address the "official warning" for those that have inquired. You won't find it in the rule book, but after subtle and/or private dealings with the HC prove fruitless and their behavior starts to grind on the crew, you stop the game and issue an "official warning." This is done openly and verbally so that the coach, the table and your partner all know what's up. After I'm done with the coach, for example, I turn to the table and say loudly, "This coach has been warned." Some college assignors even mandate a footnote in the book when this is done. Bottom line, it's a last chance for the coach to recognize he's out of rope, and it helps you CYA if you have to whack him later, because it's not like everyone in the gym won't have seen it coming.

Another tool for your kit. Lots of times coaches enjoy finding out what your threshold is, so this kind of public reprimand without penalizing satisfies them and shuts them up. Often very effective.

I find this "official warning" bullshit to be completely idiotic. If I get to the point of the game where I'm going to stop play and create a spectacle, I'm going to take my left hand and right hand and form the sign of a T and we're going to shoot free throws.

If I publicly warn and embarrass a coach, one of two things will happen. (1) The coach is contrite and cleans it up. (2, more likely, IMO) The coach gets defensive and it gets worse and I end up whacking the coach and it looks to anyone like I baited the coach.

I assign a reasonable number of varsity games (324 this year) and I will say that I don't think my officials call enough technical fouls. The stigma on them is really, really stupid and unfortunate and I'm doing my best to reduce that one situation at a time.

The best officials in the world, the NBA officials, give them out like candy -- step outside their behavior guidelines, get a technical foul. This is exactly how it should be at lower levels. I shouldn't have to work my ass off to "avoid calling a technical." I should be able to quietly tell a coach that their behavior is unacceptable and the next time it is, he gets a technical foul. There should be no shame in calling one and also no bravado or belt-notches or story telling. Coach was out of line, whack, free throws, coach sits, life goes on.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Rich

I find this "official warning" bullshit to be completely idiotic. If I get to the point of the game where I'm going to stop play and create a spectacle, I'm going to take my left hand and right hand and form the sign of a T and we're going to shoot free throws.

If I publicly warn and embarrass a coach, one of two things will happen. (1) The coach is contrite and cleans it up. (2, more likely, IMO) The coach gets defensive and it gets worse and I end up whacking the coach and it looks to anyone like I baited the coach.

I assign a reasonable number of varsity games (324 this year) and I will say that I don't think my officials call enough technical fouls. The stigma on them is really, really stupid and unfortunate and I'm doing my best to reduce that one situation at a time.

The best officials in the world, the NBA officials, give them out like candy -- step outside their behavior guidelines, get a technical foul. This is exactly how it should be at lower levels. I shouldn't have to work my ass off to "avoid calling a technical." I should be able to quietly tell a coach that their behavior is unacceptable and the next time it is, he gets a technical foul. There should be no shame in calling one and also no bravado or belt-notches or story telling. Coach was out of line, whack, free throws, coach sits, life goes on.

Rich, I respect your position as much as my own. Bottom line is, it comes down to who your commissioner/assignor is, or what the stance of your association is. When in Rome, you call the game the way your boss wants it called.

It's just that some folks seemed to think this "official warning" thing was a rule, and I felt it important to clarify that it's not. It's a tool used by some. My leash is a little longer than yours, and that's a matter of style and preference.

I will say that coaches want to know that they're being listened to, and as long as they're A) focused on coaching their players and B) respectfully asking fair questions, you should give them as much ear as practicable.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I will say that coaches want to know that they're being listened to, and as long as they're A) focused on coaching their players and B) respectfully asking fair questions, you should give them as much ear as practicable.

I think most of us agree with this, but it has nothing to do with the value of the "tool" being discussed here: the "official warning."

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Rich

I find this "official warning" bullshit to be completely idiotic. If I get to the point of the game where I'm going to stop play and create a spectacle, I'm going to take my left hand and right hand and form the sign of a T and we're going to shoot free throws.

If I publicly warn and embarrass a coach, one of two things will happen. (1) The coach is contrite and cleans it up. (2, more likely, IMO) The coach gets defensive and it gets worse and I end up whacking the coach and it looks to anyone like I baited the coach.

I assign a reasonable number of varsity games (324 this year) and I will say that I don't think my officials call enough technical fouls. The stigma on them is really, really stupid and unfortunate and I'm doing my best to reduce that one situation at a time.

The best officials in the world, the NBA officials, give them out like candy -- step outside their behavior guidelines, get a technical foul. This is exactly how it should be at lower levels. I shouldn't have to work my ass off to "avoid calling a technical." I should be able to quietly tell a coach that their behavior is unacceptable and the next time it is, he gets a technical foul. There should be no shame in calling one and also no bravado or belt-notches or story telling. Coach was out of line, whack, free throws, coach sits, life goes on.

Good post, and I agree. The technical foul is simply a tool in your toolbox and should be used appropriately. Unfortunately Some officials will do all they can to avoid it, and worse yet, when they do have one, they clearly are angry or flustered. Then it has an effect on how they call the game, either they swallow their whistle, hold a grudge, or try to make up for it, all of which are not good. When I pregame technical fouls, I usually make some mention of 'if we need a T, call it.'

[Rich1]

I am an advocate for giving the coach a lot of rope to hang himself with.
I am one of those who will request they stop and then tell them to stop.
I am not opposed to the official warning, written or otherwise.
And, on average I give more T's than most refs -- three just this week.

I do not use warnings to avoid T's and if the situation warrants it I go straight to it. Cursing, outbursts, over reaction, and the like are dealt with quickly. But when a coach is constantly chirping or questioning or teetering on crossing the line I may choose to give a warning.

If that's not your thing then I'm ok with that, but it works for some of us and it does not mean we are lesser officials, soft, or afraid to deal with coaches. Often, refs who are in over their heads or who can't keep up with the pace or pressure of the game get frustrated and hit the T way too quickly. We all have different styles and one is not necessarily better than the other.