Elbow to the Nose

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

From your description, that is the same call I would have made. I'm just curious about your "by rule" statement to the coach.
Did you follow it up with,"... if the arms/elbows are moving faster than the body during pivoting, it's an intentional foul?"

If moving as the same speed as the body still intentional by the POE unless your state says otherwise

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

If moving as the same speed as the body still intentional by the POE unless your state says otherwise

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.

I believe it is and have called it that way but have some questions about it.

If the elbows are moving in excess of the speed of the rest of the body it is called EXCESSIVE swinging of arms and elbows. 4-24-8. In 9-13-3, the swinging elbow violation rule, it says "action of the arms and elbows resulting from total body movement as in pivoting OR movement of the ball by feinting with it shall not be considered EXCESSIVE."--- The elbows are moving in those actions but by rule we are not to deem them EXCESSIVE.

b2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul. 9-13-3, quoted above, explains movement and tells you what is not excessive. I pivot normally holding ball and catch you in head or fake/feint with ball and my elbow catches you.-- Elbow moves--should be Intentional foul. I admit i'm not sure why it says SHOULD be as opposed to SHALL.


b3. moving elbow that is excessive (elbows moving at speed in excess of rest of body) can be intentional or flagrant.

For me, if the elbow is moving and contact is made above shoulders it is intentional foul, at least. That is consistent with concussion stuff. player responsible for his own elbows.

The opening sentence of section A of the POE says "A player shall not swing his arms or elbows even without making contact." That's not what 4-24-8 or 9-13 says. they both say "Excessively." Not sure why that sentence is there. I also dont like the fact that these head contact plays havnt made it into the rule books.

Anyway, if anyone sees it differently let me know. maybe im missing it...thx