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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 08:44am
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Fouling at the buzzer

Fellas, please help me settle a debate. For NFHS:

Tie score, 4th quarter. Shooter leaves the ground to attempt game winning shot. He leaves the ground with 0.1 left on the clock but doesn't get the shot off before the horn sounds. Ball leaves his hand after horn, but while still in the air...he is fouled. The foul occurs after horn, but while he is still in air.

Lets just say two man game and the T has the clock and knows the shot is no good, the L sees the foul and raises his fist.

What do you have?
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 08:47am
APG APG is offline
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Given the facts and absolutes you gave us, game over
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 08:56am
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The game is most definitely not over. You've still got an overtime to play.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 09:01am
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Sounds like a Case Book Play

I don't have the Case Book with me....

Shot cannot be good because it was released after the buzzer.

Shooter started shooting before the buzzer and was fouled before landing.

Shoot two free throws for a chance to win the game. Game is over if/when one free throw is made.

Almost everyone in attendance will be mad at the officials.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 09:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffM View Post
I don't have the Case Book with me....

Shot cannot be good because it was released after the buzzer.Shooter started shooting before the buzzer and was fouled before landing.
Shoot two free throws for a chance to win the game. Game is over if/when one free throw is made.

Almost everyone in attendance will be mad at the officials.
Correct.

Does the rule say "fouled before landing?" Or, does it use another term? How is that other term defined?

When does the ball become dead? Do any of the exceptions apply?
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 09:35am
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The guys debating this seem to be split. A handful say no shot (all agree) and no foul (unless its a flagrant or tech).

The rest say the shot attempt cant count, but the shooter is protected until he comes back to the ground. Therefore the foul would have to stand and shots coming.

It got pretty heated and wanted to get your guys opinions.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 09:56am
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Originally Posted by Dewey33 View Post
The guys debating this seem to be split. A handful say no shot (all agree) and no foul (unless its a flagrant or tech).

The rest say the shot attempt cant count, but the shooter is protected until he comes back to the ground. Therefore the foul would have to stand and shots coming.

It got pretty heated and wanted to get your guys opinions.
What you need to look at is the definition of an airborne shooter.

An airborne shooter is either attempting to release a try, or has already released a try. If the horn sounds before the try is released, he's not an airborne shooter.

Had he been fouled before the horn and not released the shot until after, then you'd shoot two free throws.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:21am
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
What you need to look at is the definition of an airborne shooter.

An airborne shooter is either attempting to release a try, or has already released a try. If the horn sounds before the try is released, he's not an airborne shooter.

Had he been fouled before the horn and not released the shot until after, then you'd shoot two free throws.
Careful. An airborne shooter by definition has released the ball. You're not an airborne shooter if you still have the ball in your hand. (NFHS 4-1-1)

Last edited by SC Official; Tue Jan 27, 2015 at 10:31am.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:29am
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The ball became dead when time expired. Since the ball was still in his hand, he is not an airborne shooter and therefore is no longer in the act of shooting once the ball becomes dead. There is no foul unless the contact is intentional or flagrant, and if it is, it is a technical foul and you start overtime with two free throws.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey33 View Post
The guys debating this seem to be split. A handful say no shot (all agree) and no foul (unless its a flagrant or tech).

The rest say the shot attempt cant count, but the shooter is protected until he comes back to the ground. Therefore the foul would have to stand and shots coming.

It got pretty heated and wanted to get your guys opinions.
If the ball is in the shooters hands still when the horn sounds it becomes dead. If he releases it after the horn, then gets fouled it is ignored unless intentional/flagrant/tech. If the ball goes in it doesnt count. dead ball went through the basket. The horn blowing while ball still in his hands means nothing but intentional/flagrant/technical fouls penalized.
If defense steps in his landing area, shooter goes down, still nothing unless really bad as noted above.

Scenario 2. The ball is in the shooters hands, he gets fouled going up, (in the act)then horn sounds before ball is released, then ball is released and goes in. The basket does not count because he did not release the ball before the horn sounded. It was dead. However, he was fouled in the act before the horn sounded so he will get two free throws.

Scenario 3-shooter goes up, ball is released, horn sounds, then foul before he gets one foot down. when ball is released on the try before the horn sounds it remains live until it goes in or certain its missed. The player, an airborne shooter, is entitled to come down etc. If the ball goes in it counts and the game, if tied, is over. no need to shoot free throws. If it is missed he gets FTS for the foul.

Look at 6-7 live/dead ball stuff and its case plays as well as Airborne shooter, 4-1 and act of shooting 4-41 stuff as others pointed out. good luck
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:14pm
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Given the facts and absolutes you gave us, game over
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Originally Posted by TriggerMN View Post
The game is most definitely not over. You've still got an overtime to play.
Too early...you're correct.
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:23pm
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I just want to know, how did you see he left the ground with 0.1 seconds left?
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:39pm
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The ball becomes dead when time expires for a quarter or extra period (6-7-6). There is one exception to this, and that is if the ball is in flight on a try or tap for field goal (6-7 Exception A). In OP, the ball was not in flight on a try or tap for field goal when time expired for the quarter, so the ball became dead when the signal sounded indicating that time had expired.

A personal foul may be committed on an airborne shooter after the ball has become dead (4-19-1). However, an airborne shooter is defined as a player who has released the ball on a try for field goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor (4-1-1). A try for field goal is defined as an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket (4-41-2). Since a goal can only be made when a live ball enters the basket from above and passes through (5-1-1), and we have determined that the ball is dead, then the "shooter" in OP did not release the ball on a try for field goal. Since the "shooter" did not release the ball on a try for field goal, then the "shooter" did not become an airborne shooter. Therefore, since the ball is dead and the fouled player is not an airborne shooter, the contact is ignored unless ruled to be intentional or flagrant (4-19-1 Note). The fourth quarter ends when the signal sounds to indicate that time has expired in the quarter (5-6-2). Since the score was tied when the fourth quarter ended, an extra period shall be played (5-7-1).

If the contact is ruled to be intentional or flagrant, then a player technical foul has occurred (10-3-7) after the fourth quarter ended. The penalty for this foul will be administered to start the extra period (5-6-2 Exception 4) following a one-minute intermission (5-7-1). Any player or eligible substitute from the offended team may shoot the awarded free throws (8-3). Both free throws shall be attempted and the initial AP arrow shall be set in the direction of the opponent's basket when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower following the free throws (4-3-3b).

If the contact is not ruled to be intentional or flagrant, then the contact is ignored and no foul has occurred, as previously stated. The extra period will begin with a jump ball (6-2-2).
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:18pm
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If you do have a situation like the OP, where the horn goes and the T says no basket, but the L still had a whistle on the play, be sure to come together and discuss. The T should NOT just waive the basket off, declare no foul and game over, as the foul could've been deemed by the L to have occurred before the horn. Come together, determine what happened when, make the call, and get the heck out of there!!
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Old Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Careful. An airborne shooter by definition has released the ball. You're not an airborne shooter if you still have the ball in your hand. (NFHS 4-1-1)
For some reason, I was thinking it included the player who was attempting to release the ball. I'll have to double check my book after work.
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