Would you call a foul if it will give disadvantage to the team fouled?

[MathReferee]

If there is a foul, call the foul. With that said, see the play start, develop and finish to determine whether or not a foul actually occurred. There is an interesting video on Arbiter for NCAA women that was posted last week that shows this exact scenario (it is a 'You Make the Call' video). There is a pass/crash with B1 fouling screener A2 while A1 passes to a wide open A3 for a layup. The calling official on the play waved the basket and called B1 for a pushing foul. The three optional answers were: a) no call - play on, b) foul on B1 and count the basket, c) foul on B1 and do not count the basket.

Answer a) only received 2% of the vote, so the option to no call a foul when the foul eliminates an easy scoring opportunity for the offense is not a highly regarded option. The other two options were to determine whether or not the foul occurred prior to the shooting motion of A3.

[Valley Man]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What I see is that you will pass on an obvious foul b/c you think another, unrelated player should make an easy lay-up. And if the he misses the lay-up, no one should talk about the obvious foul you passed on.

Although I addressed it with sarcasm and in jest, this was my point to begin with! The OP asked if he should have passed or not. My joke was tell me what you are going to say when the coach is frustrated that his kid misses the layup and he knows you passed on a foul to give it to him. Don't pass on the foul away from the ball because you THINK a player has an easy bucket. I would rather say "Coach I had to get that sorry about taking away maybe an easy 2" than have to defend "Coach I passed on that foul because you had an easy 2 sorry your kid missed it".

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Although I addressed it with sarcasm and in jest, this was my point to begin with! The OP asked if he should have passed or not. My joke was tell me what you are going to say when the coach is frustrated that his kid misses the layup and he knows you passed on a foul to give it to him. Don't pass on the foul away from the ball because you THINK a player has an easy bucket. I would rather say "Coach I had to get that sorry about taking away maybe an easy 2" than have to defend "Coach I passed on that foul because you had an easy 2 sorry your kid missed it".

Too much talking. "It didn't affect the pass." "It didn't affect the play." Get out of Dodge.

Originally Posted by potato

I know you guys go by the book and will call a foul when there's a foul, but would you ever consider the situation before deciding whether to call a foul or play on? I know sometimes for a shooting foul the refs would wait and see how the shot goes to determine if body contacts affected the shot.

But for example a scenario where:

A1 (offense) passes B1 and goes for a wide open layup, B2 sees that B1 lost the guy and intends to go for a hard foul by jumping into A1 without establishing legal position, A1 sees B2 coming for him and spots his teammate A2 wide open under the basket, passes the ball to A2 while A1 & B2 collides into each other while A2 receives the ball, in this case you would call a blocking foul on B2 or play on so A2 can proceed with an easy basket?

I would either hold my whistle until A2 begins upward motion then call a common foul or call an intentional right away. I don't think team A could be disappointed getting two shots and the ball despite losing a chance at an easy layup.

[deecee]

BNR, it looks like you are making assumptions on what I said based on who knows what. I outlined the 2 possible outcomes from what was described.

Everyone knows that the only time the coach will complain is if his kid misses the layup. Therefore the contact is not what upsets them, they are just looking for something to complain about.

Calling a foul that needs to be called versus not finding some contact illegal has nothing to do with future actions. You can extrapolate whatever conclusion you wish it doesn't change the fact that the hypothetical is difficult to adjudicate. The theoretical principal of "don't pass on an obvious foul simply due to some advantageous position the offense is in" is a simpler yes/no answer. But the level of contact on such a play is very different than a ball handler driving the lane and going up for a layup/dunk.

No one should complain about a foul/non-foul simply because their desired outcome wasn't met. Complain either way, but not because something happened. I don't want to hear it if that's the case. In all cases something like this happened, the coach immediately reminded his kids to "make their layups". He knows, I know, Naismith knows that the frustration lies in the missed 2 points not the foul/non-foul.

The post I quoted uses the word "IF" to show cause and effect. In linear logic it works this way

IF A2 misses layup THEN Coach/Fans complain ELSE Coach/Fans Cheer.

Don't see what's complicated about that, since that's what the statement said. I still don't see how you extrapolated a conclusion to my thought and how "I" would call some hypothetical when I listed the 2 potential outcomes. How in the heck you concluded that I have to call it 1 way is beyond me. But if you could tell the future I would love to know who you think will win the Super Bowl so I can make me some money.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Although I addressed it with sarcasm and in jest, this was my point to begin with! The OP asked if he should have passed or not. My joke was tell me what you are going to say when the coach is frustrated that his kid misses the layup and he knows you passed on a foul to give it to him. Don't pass on the foul away from the ball because you THINK a player has an easy bucket. I would rather say "Coach I had to get that sorry about taking away maybe an easy 2" than have to defend "Coach I passed on that foul because you had an easy 2 sorry your kid missed it".

I wouldn't say all that. If I should have called and didn't I say "I kicked it" it was a no-call then I say what I said earlier "don't be mad at me because your kid can't make a layup".

If I do call it and he welps then I say "To obvious to let go".

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

BNR, it looks like you are making assumptions on what I said based on who knows what. I outlined the 2 possible outcomes from what was described.

Everyone knows that the only time the coach will complain is if his kid misses the layup. Therefore the contact is not what upsets them, they are just looking for something to complain about.
Calling a foul that needs to be called versus not finding some contact illegal has nothing to do with future actions. You can extrapolate whatever conclusion you wish it doesn't change the fact that the hypothetical is difficult to adjudicate. The theoretical principal of "don't pass on an obvious foul simply due to some advantageous position the offense is in" is a simpler yes/no answer. But the level of contact on such a play is very different than a ball handler driving the lane and going up for a layup/dunk.

No one should complain about a foul/non-foul simply because their desired outcome wasn't met. Complain either way, but not because something happened. I don't want to hear it if that's the case. In all cases something like this happened, the coach immediately reminded his kids to "make their layups". He knows, I know, Naismith knows that the frustration lies in the missed 2 points not the foul/non-foul.

The post I quoted uses the word "IF" to show cause and effect. In linear logic it works this way

IF A2 misses layup THEN Coach/Fans complain ELSE Coach/Fans Cheer.

Don't see what's complicated about that, since that's what the statement said. I still don't see how you extrapolated a conclusion to my thought and how "I" would call some hypothetical when I listed the 2 potential outcomes. How in the heck you concluded that I have to call it 1 way is beyond me. But if you could tell the future I would love to know who you think will win the Super Bowl so I can make me some money.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where anyone stated that the reason the lay-up was missed was BECAUSE contact was passed on. So far, you are the only who typed such nonsense.

And last week, at a pretty high profile HS, I had a coach complain on at least 3 separate occasions when we didn't call a foul for his ball-handler even though each time the player ended up driving to the basket and scoring. So that bolded statement by you is the usual made up assumption and conjecture you like throw into conversations.

As far as "linear logic", I don't think you know what that is. More like "faulty logic".

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm still waiting for you to show me where anyone stated that the reason the lay-up was missed was BECAUSE contact was passed on. So far, you are the only who typed such nonsense.

And last week, at a pretty high profile HS, I had a coach complain on at least 3 separate occasions when we didn't call a foul for his ball-handler even though each time the player ended up driving to the basket and scoring. So that bolded statement by you is the usual made up assumption and conjecture you like throw into conversations.

As far as "linear logic", I don't think you know what that is. More like "faulty logic".

What did you tell the coach

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

What did you tell the coach

Nothing. I ran up to the other end of the court.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

It's not our job to judge what team is helped by a foul.

Isn't that a big part of judging advantage/disadvantage?

Let's say dribbler A-1 is driving to the basket from the top of the key, with defender B-2 bellying up to A-1, making contact all the way. A-1 is playing through the contact, despite B-2's blocking. Wouldn't it be punishing Team A by blowing the whistle too soon (before the shot, not seeing the play through), instead of holding your whistle until the release?

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Isn't that a big part of judging advantage/disadvantage?

Let's say dribbler A-1 is driving to the basket from the top of the key, with defender B-2 bellying up to A-1, making contact all the way. A-1 is playing through the contact, despite B-2's blocking. Wouldn't it be punishing Team A by blowing the whistle too soon (before the shot, not seeing the play through), instead of holding your whistle until the release?

That's not exactly what I meant, but to your point, If the player is playing through contact and the contact is marginal, you could make an argument that RSBQ was not affected. With what you describe, I'm not waiting for a call like that. Especially with the new hand check rules, when the player takes the first dribble to the basket and the defender causes illegal contact with the ball handler, I have a whistle when the foul occurs.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Isn't that a big part of judging advantage/disadvantage?

Let's say dribbler A-1 is driving to the basket from the top of the key, with defender B-2 bellying up to A-1, making contact all the way. A-1 is playing through the contact, despite B-2's blocking. Wouldn't it be punishing Team A by blowing the whistle too soon (before the shot, not seeing the play through), instead of holding your whistle until the release?

Sometimes the A coach would rather have the foul on B-2 than the (potential) points.

Yes, it's all part of the art of officiating.

[potato]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Don't forget the crap you will get from A coach, bench, and fans if A2 misses the easy layup and you passed on the foul so not to take it away

well i never said anything about waiting to see if the layup misses or not, just simply would you have the play go on or call a foul.

[potato]

well since A1 is already up in the air, he can actually do what normal players do throw the ball up for a shooting foul, but sometimes you can't gauge if there will be contact or not if B1 jumps from further away and you aren't guaranteed the refs will call it, since sometimes the refs only calls after looking at how the shot went, so if there's an open A2 under the basket it would be safer to pass it before impact, intentional foul or not, there's also no guarantee, in the final minutes these calls can change the outcome of a game.

Originally Posted by AremRed

I would either hold my whistle until A2 begins upward motion then call a common foul or call an intentional right away. I don't think team A could be disappointed getting two shots and the ball despite losing a chance at an easy layup.

[Kansas Ref]

As most respondents have cited and recognized: the most appropriate call to make would be to just go ahead and call the foul--as it was glaring. We cannot predict whether the player would've made or missed the bunny (i.e., lay up). I have had this play several times, a few in a close game,where the bunny was made but waved it off--team was not in the bonus either. Fans and coaches erupted, but my crew kept it's composure and awarded the spot throw in.

Good case study for us, thanks for posting.