Would you call a foul if it will give disadvantage to the team fouled?

[potato]

I know you guys go by the book and will call a foul when there's a foul, but would you ever consider the situation before deciding whether to call a foul or play on? I know sometimes for a shooting foul the refs would wait and see how the shot goes to determine if body contacts affected the shot.

But for example a scenario where:

A1 (offense) passes B1 and goes for a wide open layup, B2 sees that B1 lost the guy and intends to go for a hard foul by jumping into A1 without establishing legal position, A1 sees B2 coming for him and spots his teammate A2 wide open under the basket, passes the ball to A2 while A1 & B2 collides into each other while A2 receives the ball, in this case you would call a blocking foul on B2 or play on so A2 can proceed with an easy basket?

[HokiePaul]

The rules (regarding fouls) are different for a player with the ball versus without. For example, two hands on the ball handler is an automatic foul while two hands on a non-ball handler is not necessarily a foul. Similarly, when judging how a players RSBQ is affected, not having the ball makes a difference (it takes more contact to affect a non-dribblers RSBQ, in my opinion). If the ball handler passes the ball to a teammate, he is a non-ball handler and the contact can be judged differently. So something that might be a foul on a shooter may not be a foul on a player who has just passed the ball.

That said, if there is an clear foul, then it should be called regardless. It's not our job to judge what team is helped by a foul. If that were the case, then we would pass on a lot of fouls late in the game to keep the clock running. Perhaps that foul that you pass on is the 5th foul on a star player and the team would rather have the foul than the points. I think we get into trouble when we start trying to overthink things. Just apply the rules.

You do have the option of an intentional foul by the defense which sounds like it could fit in your scenario (contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position; contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play; contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball; excessive contact with an opponent while the ball is live). Also, if the contact with the passer is not immediate, it may occur after the shot (and the basket would count if good).

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

It's not our job to judge what team is helped by a foul.

Isn't that a big part of judging advantage/disadvantage?

Let's say dribbler A-1 is driving to the basket from the top of the key, with defender B-2 bellying up to A-1, making contact all the way. A-1 is playing through the contact, despite B-2's blocking. Wouldn't it be punishing Team A by blowing the whistle too soon (before the shot, not seeing the play through), instead of holding your whistle until the release?

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Isn't that a big part of judging advantage/disadvantage?

Let's say dribbler A-1 is driving to the basket from the top of the key, with defender B-2 bellying up to A-1, making contact all the way. A-1 is playing through the contact, despite B-2's blocking. Wouldn't it be punishing Team A by blowing the whistle too soon (before the shot, not seeing the play through), instead of holding your whistle until the release?

That's not exactly what I meant, but to your point, If the player is playing through contact and the contact is marginal, you could make an argument that RSBQ was not affected. With what you describe, I'm not waiting for a call like that. Especially with the new hand check rules, when the player takes the first dribble to the basket and the defender causes illegal contact with the ball handler, I have a whistle when the foul occurs.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Isn't that a big part of judging advantage/disadvantage?

Let's say dribbler A-1 is driving to the basket from the top of the key, with defender B-2 bellying up to A-1, making contact all the way. A-1 is playing through the contact, despite B-2's blocking. Wouldn't it be punishing Team A by blowing the whistle too soon (before the shot, not seeing the play through), instead of holding your whistle until the release?

Sometimes the A coach would rather have the foul on B-2 than the (potential) points.

Yes, it's all part of the art of officiating.

[deecee]

This is a HTBT situation. The 2 possible outcomes from what you described would be

1. no call
2. foul on B2, and you would have to determine if A2 had shot the ball or not when the foul occurred.

I would say the majority of the times this is a no call unless the contact is of the "we can't pass on that variety", but since both players are moving towards each other some spillage is expected.

[Valley Man]

Don't forget the crap you will get from A coach, bench, and fans if A2 misses the easy layup and you passed on the foul so not to take it away

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Don't forget the crap you will get from A coach, bench, and fans if A2 misses the easy layup and you passed on the foul so not to take it away

I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but when these types of comments come up I let the coach know that it's not my fault his kids can't hit easy layups. They usually don't bring this up again.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but when these types of comments come up I let the coach know that it's not my fault his kids can't hit easy layups. They usually don't bring this up again.

So you don't call fouls because another player should have made a lay-up?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So you don't call fouls because another player should have made a lay-up?

That's on way of interpreting what I said, or the other way is I don't call fouls because another player missed a layup.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Don't forget the crap you will get from A coach, bench, and fans if A2 misses the easy layup and you passed on the foul so not to take it away

There it is.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

...

Because of uncalled contact X on Y spot of the floor Player A1 missed a layup.

Usually this is an issue with coaches *when* A1 misses a layup and is faulty logic. My response addresses the action that the coach is really upset with. The missed layup, not the no-call.

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Don't forget the crap you will get from A coach, bench, and fans if A2 misses the easy layup and you passed on the foul so not to take it away

Originally Posted by deecee

There it is.

There what is? You said coaches blame the missed lay-up on the contact elsewhere on the floor. I get that from your use of the word "BECAUSE". Don't see that in the quoted post, or anywhere else in this thread.

What I see is that you will pass on an obvious foul b/c you think another, unrelated player should make an easy lay-up. And if the he misses the lay-up, no one should talk about the obvious foul you passed on.

[Adam]

A few years ago, I was working a JV boys game. First half, A1 caught a pass in transition between the table and B's bench and immediately passed to a wide open A2. I called a foul because B1 came up and bumped A1 pretty good (displacement of a couple of steps due to the contact).

I wish I'd had that one back. A1 completed the offensive movements he was trying to do, and it should have led to a wide-open layup if I'd seen the big picture.

No, I'm not going to wait to see if a basket is made on a potential shooting foul, but I will process whether I think the contact had any significant impact on the difficulty of the shot. In my case, the pass was gone before the contact was made, there was no need for that call.

[MathReferee]

If there is a foul, call the foul. With that said, see the play start, develop and finish to determine whether or not a foul actually occurred. There is an interesting video on Arbiter for NCAA women that was posted last week that shows this exact scenario (it is a 'You Make the Call' video). There is a pass/crash with B1 fouling screener A2 while A1 passes to a wide open A3 for a layup. The calling official on the play waved the basket and called B1 for a pushing foul. The three optional answers were: a) no call - play on, b) foul on B1 and count the basket, c) foul on B1 and do not count the basket.

Answer a) only received 2% of the vote, so the option to no call a foul when the foul eliminates an easy scoring opportunity for the offense is not a highly regarded option. The other two options were to determine whether or not the foul occurred prior to the shooting motion of A3.

[Valley Man]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What I see is that you will pass on an obvious foul b/c you think another, unrelated player should make an easy lay-up. And if the he misses the lay-up, no one should talk about the obvious foul you passed on.

Although I addressed it with sarcasm and in jest, this was my point to begin with! The OP asked if he should have passed or not. My joke was tell me what you are going to say when the coach is frustrated that his kid misses the layup and he knows you passed on a foul to give it to him. Don't pass on the foul away from the ball because you THINK a player has an easy bucket. I would rather say "Coach I had to get that sorry about taking away maybe an easy 2" than have to defend "Coach I passed on that foul because you had an easy 2 sorry your kid missed it".