Wrong Way to Start the 4th

Originally Posted by johnny d

Your concerned about proper procedure in a middle school game? I cant remember the last time I did a middle school game, but I would handle the situation as follows. First, I would have told B they were defending the wrong basket before I ever allowed A to inbound the ball. If the A coach doesn't like that, too bad for him. He will either get over it or he will get a tech. Second, if you knew they were going the wrong direction, and you had told them the correct direction, then when B got the ball, they were in team control in the front court, and they took the ball into the back court before they scored. If I had allowed the situation to get to the point you had (which I would not have) I would have stopped it with an over and back call. You might have had one on team A as well, depending upon where they inbounded the ball.

What johnny said, plus if A heads the wrong direction but does not commit a back court violation (i.e. they catch the ball in the backcourt and head towards B's basket) I'm blowing everything dead, lining everyone up correctly and giving A the ball at the POI. I'd rather do that using my 2-3 powers than have to deal with points being scored going the wrong way.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

What johnny said, plus if A heads the wrong direction but does not commit a back court violation (i.e. they catch the ball in the backcourt and head towards B's basket) I'm blowing everything dead, lining everyone up correctly and giving A the ball at the POI. I'd rather do that using my 2-3 powers than have to deal with points being scored going the wrong way.

2-3 is not necessary here. This is covered in the rules. 4-5-4

Originally Posted by just another ref

2-3 is not necessary here. This is covered in the rules. 4-5-4

Even better!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by frezer11

If by mistake the officials... In this scenario, or at least the one I'm referring to, the officials knew the correct direction. That article is to clarify what to do if players and officials screw up and it is not noticed until multiple trips up and down the court have occurred.

You are correct. Such situations happen when the officials line the jumpers up facing the wrong directions. When the officials are aware and have followed the proper mechanics, yet the teams go the wrong direction a violation, foul, time-out request, or goal must occur in order for the officials to stop play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

I meant Team B didn't realize they were headed to Team A's basket after Team A shot at Team B's basket.

But water under the bridge. I realize I completely kicked it. Should have had a backcourt violation on A right after the inbound. I was overthinking the "officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction" rule, which didn't even apply in hindsight.

So was the initial throw-in into A's FC?

Even if there was no BC violation and things played out the same, you should have given B their points. They knew which basket they were playing for, and you gave their points to A. If you let this play out, don't penalize the team that figures it out.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

We do not like it when Coaches want to officiate the game for us. We do not coach the players in the game we officiate. We don't know if Team A is trying to fool Team B in order to get an uncontested layup.


I would say you were very very wrong for whacking a HC who may have set up a play as I described in my paragraph above.



MTD, Sr.

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

Originally Posted by Rich

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

"Coach, I am required to indicate the color and direction of the throw."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

Originally Posted by AremRed

"Coach, I am required to indicate the color and direction of the throw."

I just went through the NFHS Basketball Officials Manual and no where could I find the requirement for the R to indicate the Teams' directions prior to the Jump Ball to start the game or any OT (I know, a bad bad word) Period (the IAABO Officials Manual does require the R to indicate both verbally and with a direction signal the team's Baskets) or the AP Arrow to start anyother Period. Just make sure that you have the Jumpers in the correct halves of the Center Circle and a) that you have the Thrower between you and his/her team's basket prior to the AP TI and b) your partners adjust themselves to the locations of the other players.

It is not that uncommon for JrHS coaches to run such deception plays; in fact I would say that is where one will find this type of play being run about 99.99% of the time. When this type of situation presents itself, the officials have to take a somewhat of a wait and see attitude.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I just went through the NFHS Basketball Officials Manual and no where could I find the requirement for the R to indicate the Teams' directions prior to the Jump Ball to start the game or any OT (I know, a bad bad word) Period (the IAABO Officials Manual does require the R to indicate both verbally and with a direction signal the team's Baskets) or the AP Arrow to start anyother Period. Just make sure that you have the Jumpers in the correct halves of the Center Circle and a) that you have the Thrower between you and his/her team's basket prior to the AP TI and b) your partners adjust themselves to the locations of the other players.

It is not that uncommon for JrHS coaches to run such deception plays; in fact I would say that is where one will find this type of play being run about 99.99% of the time. When this type of situation presents itself, the officials have to take somewhat of a wait and see attitude.

MTD, Sr.

Nope, they should point a direction every time and not be an accomplice in such BS.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

Nope, they should point a direction every time and not be an accomplice in such BS.

Rich:

Since when is it BS for a team to run a play that is deceptive to its opponent as long as it does not commit any infractions of the rules. Furthermore, we as veteran officials should be using correct mechanics and not coaching teamsm and mentoring less experience officials to use correct mechanics.

Let the coaches coach and the officials officate.

MTD, Sr.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by frezer11

If by mistake the officials... In this scenario, or at least the one I'm referring to, the officials knew the correct direction. That article is to clarify what to do if players and officials screw up and it is not noticed until multiple trips up and down the court have occurred.

Yes, we did know the correct direction. I'm with MTD Sr.'s assessment that my partner and I were 50% correct. First, if we were so aware of the situation, we should have had a violation of some sort. By not recognizing this, that is the point that we "made a mistake" in continuing to allow the teams to go the wrong direction. So once recognized at that point, we should have credited the stats that accumulated and corrected the disorientation. The basket that B scored at A's basket should have counted for B. Oops.

Thanks to all for the input. Very educational.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

Officials and coaches who know me know that I will not think twice about whacking a coach.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

I can assure you that in a college game if you screw up a coach's play and then you whack him because you didn't like him complaining about it, you won't be officiating at the level for very long.

MTD, Sr.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

As would I. However, I would allow him some extra chewing before I addressed the situation with him. I might give him some extra time to vent his frustration to me when I go to him and before I give him an explanation, or if he is addressing me when I am table side in front of his bench, I might give him a trip or two up and down the court. If he is yelling at me across the court or being an obvious jackass, then he wont be getting any extra rope, even if I was completely wrong on the call in question. Once he has my explanation, or I have told him we are done discussing the play, he has two choices, move on or get whacked.

Thanks for the advice, but there is no need for you to worry though, my college schedule has been fine and will continue to grow.

[Rich1]

Agree that game management dictates that you clear this up before starting the throw in but if you didn't then there's not much you can do until the ball becomes dead. This could be when a basket is made in the wrong goal (award Team A two points, give Team A the ball for a throw in, and get them going in the right way), after a 10 second count (keep in mind you would keep counting even if Team A throws the ball at the basket as this is not considered a try), or several other possible stoppages of play.Under most circumstances in sanctioned school ball I would not "coach" the team that they are headed the wrong way once the ball became live but in the rigt situation I could be tempted. For the most part I think you say it loud and say it often before putting the ball in play and hope either the players or the coaches get it quick.

I don't follow the arguement that this is an officials error (in this OP) because they made it very ckear which direction they were supposed to be heading. If Team A inbounds the ball and starts the wrong way its a player/coach error regardless of where the defense lines up. As stated by others, the NFHS procedure being cited is for times when the officials actually screw up the throwin on their own accord.