OOB rule clarification

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Are you sure about that? When does a pivot foot (by rule) get established?

Can't a player who catches the ball in the above situation still legally land on both feet....and then start a dribble from that point? If they can do that, why can they not start a dribble after jumping and before landing?

you're right. i was thinking about the "lay up" type save where the guy is running and gets pivot foot then jumps off other leg etc. that certainly isn't what was typed and i didn't catch it when i re read it. I'm glad you did.

the player who gets ball with one leg on ground and jumps off of it into air hasn't established a pivot foot yet. one leg down isn't a pivot foot until the other lands after it. the restrictions in travel rule on starting dribble say "after coming to a stop and ESTABLISHING a pivot foot" player can't start dribble with it off floor. there's also one that says when player lands when neither foot can be a pivot he can't start dribble with either foot off floor. the player in the example can come back in and touch it because he had not established a pivot foot.

you correcting my screwup has me thinking--which is always dangerous. you pass me the ball and i catch it with both feet on floor or you pass to me in air with both off floor and i land with both on floor at same time. in both of those cases i have not ESTABLISHED a pivot foot yet but can if i choose to. if i then jump into air, both feet up at same time, and then, rather than shoot ball, i throw the ball to floor--and then hit it again--dribble---Legal? i never ESTABLISHED a pivot foot and it isn't a case where neither foot could have been a pivot. am i missing anything--any interp or something else obvious? just looking at the wording of the rule i'm now thinking that it would be legal. let me know what all think.

[Terrapins Fan]

Iaabo play of the week

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

you correcting my screwup has me thinking--which is always dangerous. you pass me the ball and i catch it with both feet on floor or you pass to me in air with both off floor and i land with both on floor at same time. in both of those cases i have not ESTABLISHED a pivot foot yet but can if i choose to. if i then jump into air, both feet up at same time, and then, rather than shoot ball, i throw the ball to floor--and then hit it again--dribble---Legal? i never ESTABLISHED a pivot foot and it isn't a case where neither foot could have been a pivot. am i missing anything--any interp or something else obvious? just looking at the wording of the rule i'm now thinking that it would be legal. let me know what all think.

Art. 1...A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.

When a player jumps off both feet, "one" of them (as in the rule above) has been lifted and the other becomes the pivot foot...you can pick as it doesn't matter which one it is. As such, it is too late to start the dribble.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When a player jumps off both feet, "one" of them (as in the rule above) has been lifted and the other becomes the pivot foot...you can pick as it doesn't matter which one it is. As such, it is too late to start the dribble.

thx for replying. in my latest play i'm jumping- lifting both at same time. that happens a lot. one is not being lifted before the other. art 1 assumes one is lifted and the other is still in contact with floor. before i jump either is eligible to be the pivot but neither is ESTABLISHED as the pivot. when they both leave ground at same time i never ESTABLISHED the right or left as pivot foot. i hadn't really thought about it until now..

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

thx for replying. in my latest play i'm jumping- lifting both at same time. that happens a lot. one is not being lifted before the other. art 1 assumes one is lifted and the other is still in contact with floor. before i jump either is eligible to be the pivot but neither is ESTABLISHED as the pivot. when they both leave ground at same time i never ESTABLISHED the right or left as pivot foot. i hadn't really thought about it until now..

This is a "loophole" of sorts, not allowed. Camron's point is that you should, in this case, consider one or both of the feet to be the pivot for purposes of the traveling rule.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

This is a "loophole" of sorts, not allowed. Camron's point is that you should, in this case, consider one or both of the feet to be the pivot for purposes of the traveling rule.

wheels churning more..i think i can read language of art 2a1 to mean that the player who lands simultaneously has established A "pivot foot" even though we don't know yet if it is right or left foot...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

wheels churning more..i think i can read language of art 2a1 to mean that the player who lands simultaneously has established A "pivot foot" even though we don't know yet if it is right or left foot...

Not really...but I'm not sure that it would lead to any practical difference.

When 1 is lifted, the other becomes the pivot foot. When 2 are lifted, 1 is also lifted creating a pivot foot. Can't tell which came up first, pick one. It will not matter which you pick since it is traveling for either foot to come down before releasing the ball on a try/pass.

Sort of like the trick trivia questions: How many months have 28 days? Answer: All of them have 28 days....some a a few more too.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not really...but I'm not sure that it would lead to any practical difference.

When 1 is lifted, the other becomes the pivot foot. When 2 are lifted, 1 is also lifted creating a pivot foot. Can't tell which came up first, pick one. It will not matter which you pick since it is traveling for either foot to come down before releasing the ball on a try/pass.

Sort of like the trick trivia questions: Who many months have 28 days? Answer: All of them have 28 days....some a a few more too.

i get the 28 days one. i dont get the "when 2 are lifted, 1 is also lifted CREATING a pivot foot." i think players can and do leave floor with both feet simultaneously. if 1 is lifted the other is the pivot only because it, the other, remains in contact with floor longer. when they both go up at same time i dont see that action itself creating a pivot foot....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i get the 28 days one. i dont get the "when 2 are lifted, 1 is also lifted CREATING a pivot foot." i think players can and do leave floor with both feet simultaneously. if 1 is lifted the other is the pivot only because it, the other, remains in contact with floor longer. when they both go up at same time i dont see that action itself creating a pivot foot....

You're missing the point. When they jump off of both feet is one of the feet off the floor? Yes it is. If one foot is off the floor, the other is the pivot foot. Nothing says the pivot foot also has to be on the floor....they can lift it too.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

if 1 is lifted the other is the pivot only because it, the other, remains in contact with floor longer. when they both go up at same time i dont see that action itself creating a pivot foot....

If they both go up at the same time, it doesn't matter any more. The opportunity to have a pivot foot is gone. If you're asking if he can start a dribble in this case since a pivot foot had not been established, the answer is no.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're missing the point. When they jump off of both feet is one of the feet off the floor? Yes it is. If one foot is off the floor, the other is the pivot foot. Nothing says the pivot foot also has to be on the floor....they can lift it too.

well, that's an understatment....at least i know what you are saying now....

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If they both go up at the same time, it doesn't matter any more. The opportunity to have a pivot foot is gone. If you're asking if he can start a dribble in this case since a pivot foot had not been established, the answer is no.

the rule says you cant start a dribble with your pivot foot off the floor. if you never establish a pivot foot then you arent starting a dribble with a pivot foot off the floor.

Cameron and i are discussing what actions establish a pivot foot under travel rules...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

the rule says you cant start a dribble with your pivot foot off the floor. if you never establish a pivot foot then you arent starting a dribble with a pivot foot off the floor.

It also says when neither foot can be a pivot, neither foot may be lifted before starting a dribble.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It also says when neither foot can be a pivot, neither foot may be lifted before starting a dribble.

in the play we have been talking about the player catches the ball with both feet off floor and lands on both simultaneously. either foot can be a pivot.

the rule you are citing now deals with after i catch ball with one foot on floor, jump off that foot and land simultaneously on 2 feet. neither can be a pivot in that situation. if i dribble i have to release it before lifting either foot.