team technical

[jodibuck]

These two scenarios actually occurred in our area this week during a high school holiday basketball tournament.

Team A has 12 players listed in official score book, 12 players in uniform. However, only the 5 starters had uniform numbers listed in book. The referee apparently didn't remind team A that numbers were required. When the scorekeeper brought it to the referee's attention, as team A's first substitute entered the game, a team technical was issued. Coach of team A argued that it is the responsibility of the referee to check the book to make sure all the players have numbers listed.

Team B lists #31 as #13 in book. He is not a starter, plays a few minutes in the first half, scores 2 points, assessed 1 personal foul. A half time, the coach of Team A is advised by his scorer that the wrong number is listed in book. Referee advises coach that no technical foul may be issued because #31 is not on the court. Coach of Team A argues that since #31 has "stats", proving he had been in the game, a technical foul should be issued.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jodibuck

Team B lists #31 as #13 in book. He is not a starter, plays a few minutes in the first half, scores 2 points, assessed 1 personal foul. A half time, the coach of Team A is advised by his scorer that the wrong number is listed in book. Referee advises coach that no technical foul may be issued because #31 is not on the court. Coach of Team A argues that since #31 has "stats", proving he had been in the game, a technical foul should be issued.

Good luck understanding this (I admit that I don't understand every permutation):

If a team requires the official scorer to change a team member or player’s uniform number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Similarly, if a team requires a player to change to a number in the official scorebook after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. A maximum of one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players, and substitutes, not wearing the number indicated in the official scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the official scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that which the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for this administrative infraction. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10- 1-2b)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jodibuck

Team A has 12 players listed in official score book, 12 players in uniform. However, only the 5 starters had uniform numbers listed in book. The referee apparently didn't remind team A that numbers were required. When the scorekeeper brought it to the referee's attention, as team A's first substitute entered the game, a team technical was issued. Coach of team A argued that it is the responsibility of the referee to check the book to make sure all the players have numbers listed.

It's the responsibility of the head coach to check the book to make sure all the players have numbers listed.

There is no such responsibility listed under Rule 2 Officials and Their Duties (This actually surprised me when I looked it up, I thought that it would be a responsibility of the referee).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's the responsibility of the head coach to check the book to make sure all the players have numbers listed.

There is no such responsibility listed under Rule 2 Officials and Their Duties (This actually surprised me when I looked it up, I thought that it would be a responsibility of the referee).

Nope, the team is only required to SUPPLY the scorer with the roster. There is no requirement for making sure that the information gets properly entered.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good luck understanding this (I admit that I don't understand every permutation):

If a team requires the official scorer to change a team member or player’s uniform number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Similarly, if a team requires a player to change to a number in the official scorebook after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. A maximum of one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players, and substitutes, not wearing the number indicated in the official scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the official scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that which the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for this administrative infraction. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10- 1-2b)

I recall arguing that this play ruling was garbage when it was first issued. The logic in part a does not match that of part b. The RULE is that if the team member participates (becomes a player), then 2-11 requires the scorer to record that. That is what necessitates a team technical foul. I wish that the people employed by the NFHS who are writing these play rulings actually understood the rules.

My ruling is a team technical foul in both situations presented by the OP.
Btw how was the incorrect number not discovered when the player's foul was reported or he/she scored points?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by jodibuck

These two scenarios actually occurred in our area this week during a high school holiday basketball tournament.

Team A has 12 players listed in official score book, 12 players in uniform. However, only the 5 starters had uniform numbers listed in book. The referee apparently didn't remind team A that numbers were required. When the scorekeeper brought it to the referee's attention, as team A's first substitute entered the game, a team technical was issued. Coach of team A argued that it is the responsibility of the referee to check the book to make sure all the players have numbers listed.

I think in this first situation, I am going to find out if the numbers were provided and the score keepers just didn't transfer it into the book. I think if it was provided but not transferred, there should be no penalty. If it wasn't provided then a team foul should be assessed. At least the coach didn't say, "the other officials didn't make us provide it."

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's the responsibility of the head coach to check the book to make sure all the players have numbers listed.

There is no such responsibility listed under Rule 2 Officials and Their Duties (This actually surprised me when I looked it up, I thought that it would be a responsibility of the referee).

THIS is exactly why I have a coach, any coach, from each team initial the official scorebook prior to the the 10 minute mark….that way I, or my partners, can't have anyone complain that we caused/allowed a mistake to happen: "coach, you/your asst. initialed your roster…don't blame me, my partners, or the official scorer."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I think in this first situation, I am going to find out if the numbers were provided and the score keepers just didn't transfer it into the book. I think if it was provided but not transferred, there should be no penalty. If it wasn't provided then a team foul should be assessed. At least the coach didn't say, "the other officials didn't make us provide it."

Correct. My earlier answer was based upon the belief that the team failed to supply the numbers.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

THIS is exactly why I have a coach, any coach, from each team initial the official scorebook prior to the the 10 minute mark….that way I, or my partners, can't have anyone complain that we caused/allowed a mistake to happen: "coach, you/your asst. initialed your roster…don't blame me, my partners, or the official scorer."

The problem with this is that you are fabricating a procedure and holding a coach/team responsible for a requirement that does not exist.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's the responsibility of the head coach to check the book to make sure all the players have numbers listed.

I was considering this (above) to be a coaches responsibility in terms of common sense, and good coaching, not in terms of NFHS rules (I used to be a middle school basketball coach).

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, the team is only required to SUPPLY the scorer with the roster. There is no requirement for making sure that the information gets properly entered.

Agree (see below).

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I am going to find out if the numbers were provided and the score keepers just didn't transfer it into the book. I think if it was provided but not transferred, there should be no penalty. If it wasn't provided then a team foul should be assessed.

And, agree again.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I think in this first situation, I am going to find out if the numbers were provided and the score keepers just didn't transfer it into the book. I think if it was provided but not transferred, there should be no penalty. If it wasn't provided then a team foul should be assessed. At least the coach didn't say, "the other officials didn't make us provide it."

+1

Many coaches here provide line up cards with the starter marked. So I not hitting him for a clarical mistake if his card is correct.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The problem with this is that you are fabricating a procedure and holding a coach/team responsible for a requirement that does not exist.

Agreed.
If the coach provided the proper roster and the scorer didn't transcribe it all, having a coach's initials in the scorebook means nothing.

Hell, at that point, I've reviewed the book that's missing numbers. That's going to be even harder to explain to my assigner than anything else here.

"Did you check the book before the game?"
"Yes."
"When?"
"12 minutes."
"Why didn't you tell the coach?"

crickets

[SCalScoreKeeper]

OK from a scorekeeper's perspective-

In A-wow what was this scorer doing during warm up? That's scoring 101 and obviously this person failed.How do you allow a team to just put the starters numbers in there?

First thing I do in any sub-varsity game where I might not get the book till the start of the warm-up clock is get the visitor's uniform numbers.I'll usually ask the visiting coach (my lower level coaches already have their sides filled out) to fill out his/her own side of the book in numerical order and mark their starters.If they have a scorer traveling with them (a rarity here) I'll ask them to do that.

At the varsity level I have sheets with me containing the league's rosters.At half of the JV boys game I'll walk over to the visiting varsity girls coach with their sheet "Coach please verify the numbers on this list are accurate and make any corrections as needed-thank you."Same thing at half of varsity girls with the boys coach.

In B-correct me if I'm wrong but this is penalized when discovered right? If so this should've been a technical foul to team B.I had this happen in a JV game shortly before Christmas.Kid from the home team had one jersey number on the sheet given to the table,entered the game and promptly hit a 3,timeout was called by visiting coach-we bring the officials over and explain the situation.Tech was issued.

[Adam]

B is penalized when the change is made. If the book had made the change in the first half and told you about it in the second half, it's too late. If they let it ride and are only now making the change when they bring it up, then you call it because they're making the change. Even if he hadn't played since the first half, IMO, they have to make this change.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Even if he hadn't played since the first half, IMO, they have to make this change.

I don't believe that they have to. It's up to the coach if he wants a change made in the book, and it's an automatic change if the player enters the game in the second half.

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10- 1-2b)