20 Second disqualification count and FT

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The purpose of td 20 second timer is to specifically deal with replacing the DQ'd player and nothing else happens until that's done.

Sounds good, practical, and rational, but is it an actual NFHS rule, or just another local interpretation, or mechanic?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, practical, and rational, but is it an actual NFHS rule, or just another local interpretation, or mechanic?

Its neither. It seems as though there is no clear cut and official guide to how this should be handled and that seems to be the best way in my view until further clarification from above my pay grade. Also, I employ that procedure when dealing with a DQ replacement when a 20 second count is needed. Most of the time coaches get in a sub right away for injuries and 5th fouls so we usually don't even get to start the clock.

[Raymond]

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

5-8-3b

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

5-8-3b

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
Grants a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out,
such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s),
or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

The "don't grant a timeout rule" is very clear. Why is the "don't beckon substitutes rule" not clear? Because it doesn't exist? If it's not illegal, then it must be legal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

It seems as though there is no clear cut and official guide to how this should be handled and that seems to be the best way in my view until further clarification from above my pay grade.

Is the NFHS above your pay grade?

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1d; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is the NFHS above your pay grade?

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1laed ot red; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

Agree that subs can be beckoned in at anytime during this process but am holding on to the fact that I get to decide when to beckon them. If all is going well, coach isn't a problem, and bringing them in now won't create confusion then bring 'em in. But if I feel the situation dictates that we be certain who is subbing for who or that the coach might want to play games then I have no problem making them all wait at the table for a few more seconds. Likewise, in some situations it might make sense to get the waiting subs in asap to make it easier to deal with the coach and the replacement procedure.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Agree that subs can be beckoned in at anytime during this process ... in some situations it might make sense to get the waiting subs in asap to make it easier to deal with the coach and the replacement procedure.

We are in full agreement.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

No other subs may enter until that sub has been beckoned in.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in.

After researching the statement "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in" over the weekend, I have come to the conclusion that this rule doesn't really exist.

Keep I mind that I originally thought that it did exist, and simply wanted a citation to hang my hat on. Without a current rulebook citation, and without a current casebook citation, to back up the statement, and with two annual interpretations (below), one as recent as seven years ago, that refute that statement, I have changed my mind, and have concluded that the rule really doesn't exist, and, if it's not illegal, then it's legal.

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1laed ot red; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

I believe that the reason why some, including me, initially believed that the statement "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in" was correct, was that they were confusing it with a similar statement, also involving a replacement player, "do not grant any timeouts until the replacement player has been beckoned in". This is a real rule:

5-8-3b: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
Grants a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out,
such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s),
or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

Another cause of confusion was the following rule:

3-3-1-C-Exception:
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
c. During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only
before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted.
EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free
throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

This exception is only for multiple free throws. If we have substitutes waiting at the table when a two shot foul is called, they normally have to wait until after the first shot. However, if said foul causes a player to be disqualified, then all (existing substitutes, and replacement for disqualified player) can enter before the first free throw.

This rule (above) must not be generalized to mean "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in".

The only fly in the ointment that I can see is this twelve year old annual interpretation:

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified time frame before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

There are two problems with this annual interpretation, one minor, and one major. The first is that it's complicated by a request for a timeout. The second is that this twelve year old interpretation has been "replaced" by two newer interpretations (above).

Can we put this to bed now?

[Sharpshooternes]

Had a girls sub varsity game a few years back. A1 drives to the basket and B1 is still moving after A1 goes airborne. I have a blocking foul on B1. This is B1's fifth foul. Coach does not like the call at all. I tell her it is the fifth foul and give her a quick one sentence reason why I called what I called. She says "I am done talking to you!" I then turn to the timekeeper and ask for a 20 second replacement interval. 5 seconds. Horn. Coach is just sitting there doing nothing except being angry. 15 seconds and then horn. Whack! T for Bs coach. She says, "I get 30 seconds!" Me: No, you get 20 seconds. Coach: well that wasn't 20 seconds. Me: Coach I had the timer time it, and that was 20 seconds." Made me laugh then and still does now. Silly coaches.

If she doesn't want to talk to me, I am not going to bother with her. Maybe she learned her lesson.