Technical fouls to start the game

[Sharpshooternes]

Can someone help me with this case play? 6.4.1 SITUATION A:

Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game.

RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1's technical foul. Team A will then be given two free throws and the ball for a *division-line throw-in for B1's infraction. When the thrower of Team A has the ball for the throw-in, they have control for purposes of establishing the procedure and the arrow is immediately set toward B's basket. Team B will have the first *opportunity for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-3)

Why does one penalty trump the other? Does one type of technical foul take precedence over the other? In this case play is it just order of discovery that is penalized? thanks

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Can someone help me with this case play? 6.4.1 SITUATION A:

Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game.

RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1's technical foul. Team A will then be given two free throws and the ball for a *division-line throw-in for B1's infraction. When the thrower of Team A has the ball for the throw-in, they have control for purposes of establishing the procedure and the arrow is immediately set toward B's basket. Team B will have the first *opportunity for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-3)

Why does one penalty trump the other? Does one type of technical foul take precedence over the other? In this case play is it just order of discovery that is penalized? thanks

It's not a matter of precedence. NFHS rules dictate that all penalties are administered in the order of foul occurrence. In the case cited, the reader should assume they occurred as written..A's dunk first followed by discovery of the illegal uniform.

[bob jenkins]

If ti had been a double T, then they would "offset" and no FTs would be shot. The game would start with the jump ball.

This was a false double T.

[BigCat]

and remember, that A1's pregame dunk is charged to him and indirectly to the head coach since A1 was bench personnel. One foul is added to A team foul total. The illegal uniform T is charged directly to head coach of team B. the player is not charged with a foul. a foul is added to team total.

coaches have lost coaching box w exceptions since each has been charged with a T. see the rule for when they can stand after losing box---call TO, check on correctable error, etc..

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game.

At the twelve minute mark, couldn't the coach of Team B choose not to play B1, thus avoiding a technical foul?

Also, let's say that B1 is a designated starter, and it's the nine minute mark. What are the possible outcomes here?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

At the twelve minute mark, couldn't the coach of Team B choose not to play B1, thus avoiding a technical foul?

Also, let's say that B1 is a designated starter, and it's the nine minute mark. What are the possible outcomes here?

1. yes. T is for allowing him to participate.
2. ---rule says you can change designated starter for illegal equipment or apparel, "etc"....... it actually says ETC. if he is a starter coach is going to want him to play so there is going to be a T at some point. coach be better off changing his number in book to legal shirt. that is team technical so coach keeps box...

[StripedYooper]

How would you signal the T for the pregame dunking? Do you sound the whistle with the "t" signal? I have never seen that situation called. Just curious.

Originally Posted by StripedYooper

How would you signal the T for the pregame dunking? Do you sound the whistle with the "t" signal? I have never seen that situation called. Just curious.

No, inform both coaches and the table and start the game with the FT's. No signal necessary.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by StripedYooper

Do you sound the whistle with the "t" signal?

I believe our fine officiating colleagues in The Lone Star State prevent pregame dunking technicals by sounding their whistles before they enter the court. I wonder if they do it in unison, concurrently, or consecutively?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I believe our fine officiating colleagues in The Lone Star State prevent pregame dunking technicals by sounding their whistles before they enter the court. I wonder if they do it in unison, concurrently, or consecutively?

Usually just the R sounds the whistle and while it is recommended, I choose not to for middle school, 9th grade and most girls games. It is a penalty to dunknif the refs are present on the court - the whistle is just a courtesy warning. I'm sure eventually the rest of the country will catch up to us and add this to their pre-game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

1. yes. T is for allowing him to participate.
2. ---rule says you can change designated starter for illegal equipment or apparel, "etc"....... it actually says ETC. if he is a starter coach is going to want him to play so there is going to be a T at some point. coach be better off changing his number in book to legal shirt. that is team technical so coach keeps box...

That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Can someone help me with this case play? 6.4.1 SITUATION A:

Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game.

RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1's technical foul. Team A will then be given two free throws and the ball for a *division-line throw-in for B1's infraction. When the thrower of Team A has the ball for the throw-in, they have control for purposes of establishing the procedure and the arrow is immediately set toward B's basket. Team B will have the first *opportunity for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-3)

Why does one penalty trump the other? Does one type of technical foul take precedence over the other? In this case play is it just order of discovery that is penalized? thanks

NFHS has always been order of occurrence, so that's your answer.
The problem is that someone from the NFHS wrote a case play a couple of years ago which conflicts with the text of the rules and 6.4.1 Sit A. That case play is 3.4.3 Situation C and it states to treat any technical fouls by opposing teams prior to the start of the game as offsetting double fouls.
There is no way to resolve these conflicting rulings. Therefore, I will be going with the text of the actual rule and enforcing the penalties in the order in which they occur if such ever happens to me.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NFHS has always been order of occurrence, so that's your answer.
The problem is that someone from the NFHS wrote a case play a couple of years ago which conflicts with the text of the rules and 6.4.1 Sit A. That case play is 3.4.3 Situation C and it states to treat any technical fouls by opposing teams prior to the start of the game as offsetting double fouls.
There is no way to resolve these conflicting rulings. Therefore, I will be going with the text of the actual rule and enforcing the penalties in the order in which they occur if such ever happens to me.

NevadaRef and I agree on this situation with regard to NFHS CB Play 6.4.1 Sit. A and NFHS CB Play 3.4.3. Sit. C. CB Play 3.4.3. Sit. C was added to the 2013-14 NFHS Casebook. The sad part of the RULING for CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C is that it references CP Play 6.4.1 Sit. A to support its Ruling. I thought that the NFHS Rules Committee would have cleaned up this mess before the start of the 2014-15 season and correct the RULLING in CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C to conform to CB Play 6.4.1 Sit. A.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Quoting Liza Minelli’s late first husband, Peter Allen: EVERYTHING OLD IS NEW AGAIN! Please read the last paragraph of me Comment #25 (on Page 2) in the thread: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...changes-2.html.

When the “Dunking a Dead Ball Rule” was amended by the NBC for the 1971-72 school year, the TF was not charged to the “Dunker” but was charged as an Administrative Technical Foul. I am not going to climb into the my attic to go through file boxes to see when the TF was changed from and Administrative TF to a TF charged directly to the Dunker which made for an interesting discussion during last week of December 2014 in the following thread from the last week of December 2014 (titled: Technical fouls to start the game), paying close attention to NevadaRef’s Comment #11 and my Comment #15 (both on Page 1): https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tart-game.html due to the addition in the 2013-14 NFHS Basketball Casebook of CB Play 3.4.3 Sit. C and its RULING which seemed to contradict the RULING of already existing CB Play 6.4.1 Sit. A.

None-the-less, we can see from the new Rules Changes for 2024-25 (shown below) that the NFHS Rules, in one aspect, have reverted to the 1971-72 amendment.

10-1-1 PENALTY, 10-1-2 PENALTY, 10-2-7 PENALTY (NEW), 10-5-1 PENALTY(NEW): Establishes that all administrative, team and bench technical fouls that occur during pregame offset – no free throws are awarded – and the game will start with a jump ball and the head coach does not lose the privilege of the coaching box.
Rationale: Clarifies that an equal number of technical fouls committed by both teams during pregame offset and establishes how the game will start after offsetting technical fouls.

10-2-7 (NEW), 10-5-1i: Changes the penalty for dunking or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball from a bench technical to a team technical. Rationale: Continues to penalize the offending team with a team technical foul (free-throws, offended team the ball to start the period, a foul added to the team count), but no longer requires the coach to lose the coaching box to start the game and no personal foul is awarded.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

None-the-less, we can see from the new Rules Changes for 2024-25 that the NFHS Rules, in one aspect, have reverted to the 1971-72 amendment.