End of Game Clock- Rule vs GM

Originally Posted by Adam

Ad hominem retort.

Fallacious reasoning referencing a decade-old rules interpretation!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Rhetorical answer.

I corrected the spelling and added a P.S. LOL!

MTD, Sr.

[biggravy]

In that spot, without definitive knowledge, we are playing on. Also, I quickly decide we do not have definitive knowledge so the ball is quickly getting put back in play.

In your 6:25 sitch, same thing. We are rolling on.

In your two point left sitch, again, without definitive knowledge, we are playing on. Maybe I am taking game management to an OCD level but with less than a minute left in a close game I am counting one one thousand two one thousand on a touch like that. What if the ball is tipped on the throw in away from all the players and clearly three or four seconds elapse before the ball goes out of bounds way down the court? That is why I am counting.

[bob jenkins]

See this FED interp from 2009-2010 (emphasis added):

SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

[wyo96]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

See this FED interp from 2009-2010 (emphasis added):

A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Therefore, since the throw in ended with V1 touch, and no definite knowledge the correct answerer to the OP is 1. That is the path we took, but it was a good discussion on the way home.

[wyo96]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

See this FED interp from 2009-2010 (emphasis added):

In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Opps, on the first read I thought it said "may" in both cases. Bob do you think the interp supports taking some time off the clock in the OP without definite knowledge?

[HokiePaul]

My opinion is that you always have definite knowledge that some time should have gone off the clock in any case where the clock didn't start -- it is definitely more than 0.0 seconds. So you do have definite knowledge that at least .1 seconds elapsed. In the case of a tap directly out of bounds where the clock didn't start, I'm probably going with 0.3 seconds.

To not do this could penalize the defense in certain situations. What happens when the clock says .5 and this happens with the offense down by 2? I'm not letting the offense another "catch and shoot" attempt. If I don't have definite knowledge that it was .5 seconds and the game is over, then I'm taking between .3 off the clock and only a "tap" can score.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

See this FED interp from 2009-2010 (emphasis added):

Good find. I was in the "no definite knowledge" camp until I read this. That case play sold me.

My greater wonder now is why the NFHS removed this from their case book? I'll bet they were concerned that officials' manipulation of the clock was being interpreted too liberally.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

My greater wonder now is why the NFHS removed this from their case book?

They didn't. This was published in their interpretations that they issue every year.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

If I don't have definite knowledge that it was .5 seconds and the game is over, then I'm taking between .3 off the clock and only a "tap" can score.

If a rulebook specifies that at least 0.3 seconds should be run off any time the clock starts properly, that's one thing.

But, I think the logic is faulty to use NFHS 5-2-5 and declare that at least 0.3 seconds must run off on a deflection that goes immediately OOB. That rule says that 0.3 seconds is the minimal amount of time that a player needs to "catch and release." If there's no control, it could be less. Heck, that's essentially what 5-2-5 says in regards to the try.

A player has his hand an inch above the ground over OOB deflects the thrown-in directly to the floor and you'd take off 0.3 seconds? If the player caught the ball and immediately tossed it into the first row, I'd agree with you that at least 0.3 seconds should come off.

[just another ref]

The interp provokes questions of its own.

.....must make allowance for the touching, likely tenths of a second, if displayed.


likely? if displayed?

And what if they're not displayed? You take off a whole second for this? I don't think so.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Altor

If a rulebook specifies that at least 0.3 seconds should be run off any time the clock starts properly, that's one thing.

But, I think the logic is faulty to use NFHS 5-2-5 and declare that at least 0.3 seconds must run off on a deflection that goes immediately OOB. That rule says that 0.3 seconds is the minimal amount of time that a player needs to "catch and release." If there's no control, it could be less. Heck, that's essentially what 5-2-5 says in regards to the try.

A player has his hand an inch above the ground over OOB deflects the thrown-in directly to the floor and you'd take off 0.3 seconds? If the player caught the ball and immediately tossed it into the first row, I'd agree with you that at least 0.3 seconds should come off.

I agree. It could be 0.1. I'm saying 0.3 for anything that is clearly longer but no other count was being conducted. But if it is immediately out of bounds, then I'd go 0.1. I just don't think it can be 0.0.