The "running bobble"

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I'm sorry, i disagree completely. 4-15-2 says "during a dribble" --definition of dribble as you know says intentionally bat or push ball to floor….

for this section to apply i first have to bat or push ball to the floor. if, after that, i push it out in front of me and run and touch it again before it touches floor i have violated this section. in my example and the op a player started bobbling on receipt of a pass. he never started a dribble…the ball has never hit the floor. it simply cannot be "during a dribble" which is required before this section applies.

Is your point that this is really a travelling violation? Or that it's not a violation at all? Or, something else?

Just trying to understand.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Is your point that this is really a travelling violation? Or that it's not a violation at all? Or, something else?

Just trying to understand.

my thoughts
1. the dribble rule does not begin to come into play in this example because the ball has not been pushed/batted etc to the floor--cannot be "during dribble." cannot be a violation under that rule.

2. if it's anything it would have to be a travel. the closest thing we have to it is the play where i pass the ball up and go run under an catch it. moving 5 feet etc. that is travel. in reality, in a live game, i don't think I'm going to see a player bobbling/tipping the ball in such a controlled manner that i am going to even consider travel. a player can intend to bat the ball but it might go 1 foot one time and 2 feet the next…moving left and right. just because he intends to bat/bobble the ball doesn't make me think anything is wrong. (oxymoron as you say)

3. in the hypothetical world--if you pass me the ball over my head and i tip it up--and then, because of tip drill nightmares, i start walking down the floor with arms raised tipping the ball 4 to 6 inches over my head--never catching it, then I'm going to think about travel. the player is never holding the ball so i can see not calling travel. however, he is moving from point A to point B similar to passing it to himself. as i said, i havnt seen yet and don't think i will see batting/tipping so controlled and for a period long enough to make me think travel.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

my thoughts
1. the dribble rule does not begin to come into play in this example because the ball has not been pushed/batted etc to the floor--cannot be "during dribble." cannot be a violation under that rule.

2. if it's anything it would have to be a travel. the closest thing we have to it is the play where i pass the ball up and go run under an catch it. moving 5 feet etc. that is travel. in reality, in a live game, i don't think I'm going to see a player bobbling/tipping the ball in such a controlled manner that i am going to even consider travel. a player can intend to bat the ball but it might go 1 foot one time and 2 feet the next…moving left and right. just because he intends to bat/bobble the ball doesn't make me think anything is wrong. (oxymoron as you say)

3. in the hypothetical world--if you pass me the ball over my head and i tip it up--and then, because of tip drill nightmares, i start walking down the floor with arms raised tipping the ball 4 to 6 inches over my head--never catching it, then I'm going to think about travel. the player is never holding the ball so i can see not calling travel. however, he is moving from point A to point B similar to passing it to himself. as i said, i havnt seen yet and don't think i will see batting/tipping so controlled and for a period long enough to make me think travel.

I see what you're saying. I see this is a some sort of loophole hybrid situation. If the player was holding it first and threw it in the air only to start tapping it upwards, you'd call a travel based on the case play. This, however, used to be considered an illegal air dribble.
If the player was in the middle of a dribble and started doing it, you'd have an illegal dribble.

The rules clearly state that we aren't to let players take advantage of the rules to gain an unintended advantage, and I think this would fall in that category (think of a post player who is able to move this way without the shorter opponents being able to touch the ball).

Whether you call it a travel or an illegal dribble doesn't matter, IMO. It's a violation.

[bob jenkins]

There is some case play where the ruling used to be DD, then was switched to Travelling, then back to DD (or the other way round).

Same idea here.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I see what you're saying. I see this is a some sort of loophole hybrid situation. If the player was holding it first and threw it in the air only to start tapping it upwards, you'd call a travel based on the case play. This, however, used to be considered an illegal air dribble.
If the player was in the middle of a dribble and started doing it, you'd have an illegal dribble.

This can't in any way be considered a fumble because he threw it into the air, as opposed to an "accidental loss of control."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This can't in any way be considered a fumble because he threw it into the air, as opposed to an "accidental loss of control."

The OP isn't a fumble either because the player was never holding the ball.

The word "fumble" is irrelevant.

[Nevadaref]

NFHS history lesson: the air dribble = deliberately batting the ball into the air repeatedly while moving down the court.

Adam has been correct throughout this thread. The BigCat should listen to him.

I've posted about the "air dribble" on this forum before. It was removed back in the 80s, I believe. Consult the NFHS Handbook for the exact year.

At the present time a dribble must be pushed to the floor before the player may touch the ball again. This is how the NFHS made the air dribble illegal. If the ball is not permitted to strike the floor, then the action has not met the definition of a dribble and is BY DEFINITION an illegal dribble. This action is not a travel.

The Case Play mentioned by Bob is 4.15.4 Sit D. Notice that it is back in the section entitled "Dribble - Legal and Illegal Movement."

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NFHS history lesson: the air dribble = deliberately batting the ball into the air repeatedly while moving down the court.

Adam has been correct throughout this thread. The BigCat should listen to him.

I've posted about the "air dribble" on this forum before. It was removed back in the 80s, I believe. Consult the NFHS Handbook for the exact year.

At the present time a dribble must be pushed to the floor before the player may touch the ball again. This is how the NFHS made the air dribble illegal. If the ball is not permitted to strike the floor, then the action has not met the definition of a dribble and is BY DEFINITION an illegal dribble. This action is not a travel.

The Case Play mentioned by Bob is 4.15.4 Sit D. Notice that it is back in the section entitled "Dribble - Legal and Illegal Movement."

That case play starts with the player already dribbling and then hitting it again--obvious illegal dribble. Adam and I (and Bob) were discussing the OP where the ball never hit the floor. i was contending that by the dribble definition and when it says it starts in book that if the ball didn't hit the floor at least once it was never a dribble and thus couldn't be "during a dribble" as required in 4-15-2.

Longhorn then shifted the thred and i figured it out…and acknowledged that this OP was likely an illegal dribble as Adam originally said. i came to the conclusion that a dribble really starts when the ball is released or intentionally batted. if you hit it again before it hits the ground --illegal dribble in violation 4-15-2. if you run and catch it in air before hits it is travel. sometimes you have to wait and see what happens next before you know if the original bat/throw is part of a dribble or pass.

As far as listening to Adam goes, that's good advice IF you mean i should consider/think about hard/discuss seriously what he says. i think i did that..and try to do it with everyone. if however, you mean i should accept what he or anyone says blindly without thought/discussion that's bad advice.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

NFHS history lesson: the air dribble = deliberately batting the ball into the air repeatedly while moving down the court.

Adam has been correct throughout this thread. The BigCat should listen to him.

I've posted about the "air dribble" on this forum before. It was removed back in the 80s, I believe. Consult the NFHS Handbook for the exact year.

I think you're about 50 years off....but close enough for this discussoin.