Officials clear FT lane incorrectly

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You are worried way too much about hypothetical responses from the coach.

Hmmmm, interesting response from a guy who is on a basketball forum talking basketball scenarios....

Thanks for the feedback.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Hmmmm, interesting response from a guy who is on a basketball forum talking basketball scenarios....

Thanks for the feedback.

I disagree with you completely. Hypothetical (or actual) situations that cause us to discuss the rules is what this forum is for.

Make the call or decision that needs to be made.

Seems too often (to me, imho) that your part of the conversation revolves too heavily around worrying about possible reactions from coaches. You shouldn't give a flip about any of that. And when coaches react, you should be able to support whatever ruling you've made. Being overly concerned with a possible sh!tstorm or a coach going ballistic shouldn't even enter your mind when making your officiating decisions.

Make your decisions ... without regard to potential coach reactions.

[APG]

As Bob noted, we wouldn't even go to a (delayed) violation...not having Team B members in the first two spots (and not coming from a TO) would result in a T after directing the head coach to provide two members.

And since the administering official never directed the coach to provide two members to line up, there's no T to be had.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Make your decisions ... without regard to potential coach reactions.

Well Mr. Steer (Actually I don't believe you are really a steer...anymore than I am a RookieDude)

...but names can be deceiving.

The original post was asked of me when I was doing a pregame the other night. I have to admit, after 25 years of officiating, I couldn't come up with a rule reference to help the guys that posed the question.

Upon looking in the Case Book, I did find "OFFICIALS PROVIDE ERRONEOUS INFORMATION" 8.6.1

This does not cover the OP...but, IMO, it gives a philosophy of how we would handle this certain situation. "{Play should continue. 2-3}"

I was simply creating a discussion to find out if any other Official could give me a similar or even the same RULE REFERENCE that I found.

jtheUMP actually did say "points not covered in the rules".

JRUT...thanks for your honest response..."not sure" (I'm with you)

If any of you other big dogs (Adam, Nevada, Rich, rockyroad, etc.) have an actual rule or case reference...please let me know so I can pass it on to our association. Otherwise, I'm going with "Play On" 2-3. Missed or Made FT.

...I miss Jurassic....sigh.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Well Mr. Steer (Actually I don't believe you are really a steer...anymore than I am a RookieDude)

...but names can be deceiving.

The original post was asked of me when I was doing a pregame the other night. I have to admit, after 25 years of officiating, I couldn't come up with a rule reference to help the guys that posed the question.

Upon looking in the Case Book, I did find "OFFICIALS PROVIDE ERRONEOUS INFORMATION" 8.6.1

This does not cover the OP...but, IMO, it gives a philosophy of how we would handle this certain situation. "{Play should continue. 2-3}"

I was simply creating a discussion to find out if any other Official could give me a similar or even the same RULE REFERENCE that I found.

jtheUMP actually did say "points not covered in the rules".

JRUT...thanks for your honest response..."not sure" (I'm with you)

If any of you other big dogs (Adam, Nevada, Rich, rockyroad, etc.) have an actual rule or case reference...please let me know so I can pass it on to our association. Otherwise, I'm going with "Play On" 2-3. Missed or Made FT.

...I miss Jurassic....sigh.

i would tell your association it is not one of the listed correctable errors. 2-10. a-e. the free throw shot was merited. just didnt have the players in the lane. the similar case plays are the ones where free throws are shot in the wrong order...and the one where a player has gotten a 5th foul. while he is being replaced the other official allows player to shoot free throw.
both of these mention that the free throw was merited and the error is not a correctable error...it is an officials error.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Boys Varsity...3 Whistle crew...

Last second FG attempt by A1. (Team A was down by 2) A1 was fouled, then buzzer sounded. (Shot did not go in)

U2 had definite knowledge that there was .6 seconds left in game.

U2 was at table instructing clock operator to put .6 seconds on clock.

During this time, the R (thinking there was no time left) had told the players to "Clear the Lane" for A1's FT attempts.

A1 made his first FT, with no players on the lane.

U2 blew whistle and informed the R that there was indeed .6 seconds left in game.

NOTE: We all know that the Officials should have slowed down and got together BEFORE the FT action...but, they did not.

Sooooo, how are you going to administer this without one of the Teams protesting that a rule was miss-applied? (This game went into 3 OTs)

No one seems to have noticed that the crew actually misapplied TWO rules.
According to 5-10-1 the REFEREE may correct an obvious timing mistake, so the U2 should have informed the R of the time that he observed and let the R go to the table to make the correction instead of going to the table himself. This would have prevented the FT problem as communication amongst the officials about the timing issue would have occurred prior to the FT administration.

Originally Posted by BigCat

i would tell your association it is not one of the listed correctable errors. 2-10. a-e. the free throw shot was merited. just didnt have the players in the lane. the similar case plays are the ones where free throws are shot in the wrong order...and the one where a player has gotten a 5th foul. while he is being replaced the other official allows player to shoot free throw.
both of these mention that the free throw was merited and the error is not a correctable error...it is an officials error.

I agree with this and these are the same rule references that I would use.
Others situation that I could conjure would be the officials awarding a throw-in to the wrong team or awarding a throw-in at the wrong spot. For example, an intentional personal foul occurs in the FT lane in the backcourt and following the FTs the crew administers the throw-in at the division line.
All of these are incorrect and mistakes by the officials, but none of them are correctable errors.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Hmmmm, interesting response from a guy who is on a basketball forum talking basketball scenarios....

Thanks for the feedback.

I think what he's trying to say is that we can go on and on and on about what a coach could possibly say, so perhaps we should stick to something a little more likely.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm not entertaining that conversation. "Free throw is over, there are no retroactive violations. Take up any further conversation with the VHSL".

You are worried way too much about hypothetical responses from the coach.

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Hmmmm, interesting response from a guy who is on a basketball forum talking basketball scenarios....

Thanks for the feedback.

It's an officiating forum, not a coach's forum. Why should a coach's response change anything? maybe it's my 31 years being associated with the military, sometimes somebody needs to take charge and not be concerned with the feedback.

[crosscountry55]

This thread has clearly exceeded its initial purpose.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This thread has clearly exceeded its initial purpose.

And?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This thread has clearly exceeded its initial purpose.

Lively discussion is the purpose of every thread.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's an officiating forum, not a coach's forum. Why should a coach's response change anything? maybe it's my 31 years being associated with the military, sometimes somebody needs to take charge and not be concerned with the feedback.

To expound on this.

1) There is no correctable error because a merited free throw was shot by the correct shooter.

2) There is no violation by the defense because the officials directed them to clear the paint.

3) There is no specific rule or case play that covers this exact situation.

Therefore, this is where the crew has to come up with a common sense, best for the game solution. Whether or not the coaches agree, argue, threaten to protest, or tell you they don't want to hear about rule 2-3 shouldn't change how the play is adjudicated.

Make a decision and be prepared to tell the coaches this is the final answer and there will be no ongoing debate.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

To expound on this.

Make a decision and be prepared to tell the coaches this is the final answer and there will be no ongoing debate.

Ehhhhhh...unfortunately, Washington does allow a coach to file a protest if a rule has been misapplied or set aside. As I said before, I don't think a protest of this situation would go very far here, but there would probably be one. So there would, again unfortunately, be some ongoing debate.

In the majority of the protests I am aware of, the WIAA has backed the officials. The few I know of that were overturned were pretty easy things that got kicked badly...and it seems most were in football, not basketball.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Ehhhhhh...unfortunately, Washington does allow a coach to file a protest if a rule has been misapplied or set aside. As I said before, I don't think a protest of this situation would go very far here, but there would probably be one. So there would, again unfortunately, be some ongoing debate.

In the majority of the protests I am aware of, the WIAA has backed the officials. The few I know of that were overturned were pretty easy things that got kicked badly...and it seems most were in football, not basketball.

So note the protest and go on. There still hasn't been a misapplied/set aside rule here. An official's mistake, yes, but not a misapplied rule.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Ehhhhhh...unfortunately, Washington does allow a coach to file a protest if a rule has been misapplied or set aside. As I said before, I don't think a protest of this situation would go very far here, but there would probably be one. So there would, again unfortunately, be some ongoing debate.

In the majority of the protests I am aware of, the WIAA has backed the officials. The few I know of that were overturned were pretty easy things that got kicked badly...and it seems most were in football, not basketball.

The "debate" I'm referring to is the back-and-forth with the coach at the time of our (crew) ruling. We can't let a coach's reaction be a determinant in our ruling. After the fact crew chief would have to provide a report, after which the chips will have to fall where they may.