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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 12:47pm
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Bang-bang, steal or block?

A-1 is dribbling near the right sideline, with nobody in front of him. Speedy little B-2 comes in at an angle, gets in front of A-1 for a split second and knocks the ball away an instant before A-1 runs into him. B-2 never gained LGP, as he's facing the sideline, so PCF is off the table.

Blocking foul, incidental contact, or HTBT?
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 12:50pm
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Looks like a screening foul to me.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 02:10pm
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Could be nothing, could be a foul. HTBT.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 03:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
A-1 is dribbling near the right sideline, with nobody in front of him. Speedy little B-2 comes in at an angle, gets in front of A-1 for a split second and knocks the ball away an instant before A-1 runs into him. B-2 never gained LGP, as he's facing the sideline, so PCF is off the table.

Blocking foul, incidental contact, or HTBT?
Plus, since the ball was knocked away, there can't be a PCF. Could still be a TCF, though.

In general on this, I would lean to "nothing", but I agree with Camron that it's HTBT.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 07:30pm
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If the dribbler is staying in one place, screening and guarding would not apply. Could simply be a situation of a player legally obtaining a spot on the floor. He has the right to be there without being displaced through contact from an opponent.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 07:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
A-1 is dribbling near the right sideline, with nobody in front of him. Speedy little B-2 comes in at an angle, gets in front of A-1 for a split second and knocks the ball away an instant before A-1 runs into him. B-2 never gained LGP, as he's facing the sideline, so PCF is off the table.

Blocking foul, incidental contact, or HTBT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
If the dribbler is staying in one place, screening and guarding would not apply. Could simply be a situation of a player legally obtaining a spot on the floor. He has the right to be there without being displaced through contact from an opponent.
I don't think he was staying in one place.
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Old Sun Dec 14, 2014, 08:21pm
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B-2 certainly got to the spot first, albeit for a split-second, but wasn't facing A-1, and never had two feet on the floor (just one, running the whole time), so there was no LGP.
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Old Mon Dec 15, 2014, 12:33am
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No time or distance is required for guarding a moving opponent with the ball, however the defender must get two feet on the floor and be facing the opponent prior to contact.
Therefore, I would deem this to be illegal by the defender and penalize with a block.

PS in my earlier post I was envisioning a stationary dribbler who had the ball get knocked away and then the contact was due to A1 running into B1 while going for the loose ball. That's a foul by A1 or incidental contact.
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Old Mon Dec 15, 2014, 08:43am
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This is going to depend on the amount of contact. If there is a huge collision and now A-1 is completely prevented from recovering the ball or is taken off their feet I would have something. IN that situation though if contact occurs after the ball has been knocked loose I've got a player without the ball bumping into a player without LGP. This happens often in a game without a foul call so this wouldn't be different unless there was a significant reason.

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Old Mon Dec 15, 2014, 12:55pm
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Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
This is going to depend on the amount of contact. If there is a huge collision and now A-1 is completely prevented from recovering the ball or is taken off their feet I would have something. IN that situation though if contact occurs after the ball has been knocked loose I've got a player without the ball bumping into a player without LGP. This happens often in a game without a foul call so this wouldn't be different unless there was a significant reason.

HTBT
Good analogy. I withheld my ruling until now: I had a blocking foul.

I saw B-2 hustle toward A-1 at and angle and go after the ball, and even though he got a little ahead of A-1 and knocked the ball loose, he created the contact by not having LGP and getting into the dribbler's path. Since the ball was knocked away, player control was certainly lost immediately before the contact, but team control remained.

Any other thoughts?
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Old Mon Dec 15, 2014, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Good analogy. I withheld my ruling until now: I had a blocking foul.

I saw B-2 hustle toward A-1 at and angle and go after the ball, and even though he got a little ahead of A-1 and knocked the ball loose, he created the contact by not having LGP and getting into the dribbler's path. Since the ball was knocked away, player control was certainly lost immediately before the contact, but team control remained.

Any other thoughts?

As others have said, you kind of gotta see it to know what to call, but I will say this, if this happened near the sideline and the ball was knocked out of bounds, it sounds like the offense would retain possession regardless. I'm not saying that you should not call a foul, but if the contact was light or questionable, it might be another option, especially if you already had a high foul count on the defense. On the other hand, if the foul count was, say, 6-0 against the offensive team, then it might be an easy and legitimate way to get one on the D without making anything up.
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Old Mon Dec 15, 2014, 03:56pm
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Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
As others have said, you kind of gotta see it to know what to call, but I will say this, if this happened near the sideline and the ball was knocked out of bounds, it sounds like the offense would retain possession regardless. I'm not saying that you should not call a foul, but if the contact was light or questionable, it might be another option, especially if you already had a high foul count on the defense. On the other hand, if the foul count was, say, 6-0 against the offensive team, then it might be an easy and legitimate way to get one on the D without making anything up.
If the ball goes OOB before the contact, then it is not a foul BY RULE, unless deemed intentional or flagrant.
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Old Mon Dec 15, 2014, 04:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
As others have said, you kind of gotta see it to know what to call, but I will say this, if this happened near the sideline and the ball was knocked out of bounds, it sounds like the offense would retain possession regardless. I'm not saying that you should not call a foul, but if the contact was light or questionable, it might be another option, especially if you already had a high foul count on the defense. On the other hand, if the foul count was, say, 6-0 against the offensive team, then it might be an easy and legitimate way to get one on the D without making anything up.
Why should the foul count have anything to do with whether you call the foul?

(I do think there are weak officials who stop calling fouls beause of foul count -- which allows the team that is playing excessively physically to beat the crap out of the other team sometimes. A few solid foul calls on the perimert (or in the post), and then they stop calling the very same contact a foul. Pet peeve . . . . Referee what happens, not the foul count.)
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