Uconn v Stanford Women's (Video)

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

White 41, guarding Blue 30, slid over to take the charge. Would she be considered a secondary defender?
If so, does that change the mind-set of the C and L, as to which official takes the call?
Would that explain the point by the C, that seems to indicate that L should take the call?
Is there a difference as to which official takes that call, based on when/where the ballhandler received the pass, that is, as she crossed the freethrow line extended, or if she had received the pass higher, on her path to the basket?

A couple of things. Here's a screen grab of the moment UConn #30 establishes PC:



*Once the UConn player caught the pass, she was in the C's PCA. Any contact on the C's side of the lane is hers. The L is supposed to help if needed.
*She caught the pass/began her move outside the LDB so the RA is on (I'm teaching myself to go through that thought process).
*By rule, every defender in a fast break situation is a secondary defender (NCAAW 4.35.2). We have to expect the player closest to the goal is going to slide over.

What I think happened - and this is obviously just a guess - is even though we only see a fist from the C, the L may have blown her whistle first and that threw off the C's concentration. The L didn't see the C make a call and instead of telling the C to take it, she kept it.

I'm making that guess based on something that happened to me in a scrimmage about ten days ago. Same type of fast break situation, I'm the C but the contact was actually on the block nearest to me as opposed to deeper in the lane. My L not only had a whistle he also had a preliminary. Thankfully we both had a block but hearing his whistle when I didn't expect anyone else to blow threw me off and my mechanics on the play were horrible.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

What I think happened - and this is obviously just a guess - is even though we only see a fist from the C, the L may have blown her whistle first and that threw off the C's concentration. The L didn't see the C make a call and instead of telling the C to take it, she kept it.

.

I can see that as a possibility...sure looks like the L is waiting for the C to take the call. And then when C points to L, she hits her whistle again (ugh) and sells the signal.

Would love to hear from the C why she gave that up.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

A couple of things. Here's a screen grab of the moment UConn #30 establishes PC:



*Once the UConn player caught the pass, she was in the C's PCA. Any contact on the C's side of the lane is hers. The L is supposed to help if needed.
*She caught the pass/began her move outside the LDB so the RA is on (I'm teaching myself to go through that thought process).
*By rule, every defender in a fast break situation is a secondary defender (NCAAW 4.35.2). We have to expect the player closest to the goal is going to slide over.

What I think happened - and this is obviously just a guess - is even though we only see a fist from the C, the L may have blown her whistle first and that threw off the C's concentration. The L didn't see the C make a call and instead of telling the C to take it, she kept it.

I'm making that guess based on something that happened to me in a scrimmage about ten days ago. Same type of fast break situation, I'm the C but the contact was actually on the block nearest to me as opposed to deeper in the lane. My L not only had a whistle he also had a preliminary. Thankfully we both had a block but hearing his whistle when I didn't expect anyone else to blow threw me off and my mechanics on the play were horrible.

JetManFan:

You forgot the most important word in NCAAW R4-S35-A2: "initially". When B-11 gained PC of the Ball there was no defender between her and the Basket. W-41 established a LGP against B-11 before B-11 became airborne.

I agree that in theory the C should have this play all the way to the Basket. And in this type of play the L has a good look at W-41 coming from her PCA to establish a LGP. My problem is that the L may have been straight-lined just before B-11 became airborne, none-the-less, this was an easy charge for the C to get.

MTD, Sr.

[APG]

Mark, this IS NOT a charge period.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

W-41 established a LGP against B-11 before W-41 became airborne.

Typo? Or, am I missing something.

And, I agree that this should NOT have been a PC foul because of the RA.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JetManFan:

You forgot the most important word in NCAAW R4-S35-A2: "initially". When B-11 gained PC of the Ball there was no defender between her and the Basket. W-41 established a LGP against B-11 before W-41 became airborne.

I agree that in theory the C should have this play all the way to the Basket. And in this type of play the L has a good look at W-41 coming from her PCA to establish a LGP. My problem is that the L may have been straight-lined just before B-11 became airborne, none-the-less, this was an easy charge for the C to get.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, you are aware of the purpose of that little arc they drew under the basket, right?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by APG

Mark, this IS NOT a charge period.

By the RA rule, you're correct, it is a block. But there is nothing about this play that "should" make it a block aside from an arbitrary line on the court.

[Remington]

I struggle to see how anyone sees this as a charge after watching the replay (so I'm honestly looking for your opinion if it is different). I don't work women's so I may be out of the loop on the rules. On the men's side this is a block all day long as the defender never establishes LGP outside of the RA in my opinion. The contact can happen in the RA and be an offensive foul if the defender establishes LGP and retreats into the RA. These calls are tough and we should never criticize an official for missing heels being in the RA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By the RA rule, you're correct, it is a block. But there is nothing about this play that "should" make it a block aside from an arbitrary line on the court.

I think that is the point. The RA is at play. If it was not, then Mark or anyone would have a case for a charge.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Typo? Or, am I missing something.

And, I agree that this should NOT have been a PC foul because of the RA.

Bob:

It was a typo and I corrected it.

This is a charge because A-41 was the primary defender therefore, the RA is not relevant to the play.

MTD, Sr.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

By the RA rule, you're correct, it is a block. But there is nothing about this play that "should" make it a block aside from an arbitrary line on the court.

Okay...and?

This is an RA play...short of Mark not knowing the rule, there's no case for a charge on this play.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob:

It was a typo and I corrected it.

This is a charge because A-41 was the primary defender therefore, the RA is not relevant to the play.

MTD, Sr.

Unless the rule is different in Women's, on a fast break everyone is a secondary defender.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob:

It was a typo and I corrected it.

This is a charge because A-41 was the primary defender therefore, the RA is not relevant to the play.

MTD, Sr.

1. This is a fast break

2. The defender is a help defender who came to help off the player she was initially guarding in the paint...this also makes her a secondary defender.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

1) NCAAW R4-S35-A2 states that in a fast break situation all defenders are initially secondary defenders. That does not mean that all defenders are secondary defenders during the entire fast break play which would be nonsense. At some point during the fast break play there is the possibility that there will be a defender who will become the primary defender against the ball handler. By rule the RA applies to a secondary defender and does not apply to the primary defender.

2) As Warner Wolfe would say: "Lets go to the video!" When B-11 gains PC control of the ball she has a clear path to the Basket; there are no defenders between her and the Basket. She is not being defended. That means when A-41 established a LGP against B-11, she became the primary defender against B-11. The RA does not apply in this situation and B-11 charges into A-41.

3) If one takes the position that NCAAW R4-S35-A2 means that there cannot ever be a primary defender during a fast break play, then in the play being discussed, no defender would be allowed to defend B-11 once she gains PC of the Ball and has to be allowed to drive to the Basket uncontested, which in nonsense.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

then in the play being discussed, no defender would be allowed to defend B-11 once she gains PC of the Ball and has to be allowed to drive to the Basket uncontested, which in nonsense.

MTD, Sr.

That's not at all what the rule says or what the rule means.